# The proposed National Popular Vote Interstate Compact **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797 "2018-01-03T14:23:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/361 "2019-05-31T02:36:29Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > An absurd pair of logical fallacies here. > > 1. The Constitution is not infallible and a healthy democracy debates systemic change. Where did I say anything of the sort? Please note the specific exchange of comments that you’re weighing in on. A citation was made to “We the People” as being somehow dispositive of the issue of what should be done wrt the Electoral College and the NPVIC. My point is simply that “We the People” being the body from which the Constitution is derived doesn’t answer that, because those self-same People promptly devolved the power to select the President to the states in that Constitution. So while there might be good arguments for the NPVIC, simply saying that “We the People” who are mentioned in the Preamble are somehow empowered by it isn’t enough. > [@](#): > > 1. An appeal for popular election of the presidency, the one truly national office we have, is not a suggestion that all matters of governance be decided by a popular vote. > > Btw, to whomever this applies – a popular vote does not equal a “popularity contest.” No, but an appeal that we should implement the NPVIC simply because it is somehow more “democratic” implies that “democratic” processes in and of themselves are somehow inherently superior to non-“democratic” processes. And I was simply pointing out that, if we define a process as being more “democratic” simply because it involves totting up the total number of votes for each side of a specific contest and letting the majority/plurality decide the result, then shouldn’t we be trying to accomplish that in all aspects of our governmental systems? There are plenty of perfectly valid arguments in favor of changing the system of selecting Presidents to something more in line with the NPVIC. They just are more complex than, "it’s more democratic and empowers “We the People!” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/362 "2019-05-31T03:46:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t think there’s a whole lot of people who identify first with their state, and second as being an American. … Lots of Texans seem to (although I can’t find a poll for a statistical value of “lots” at the moment - on my phone) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/363 "2019-05-31T14:17:14Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No, but an appeal that we should implement the NPVIC simply because it is somehow more “democratic” implies that “democratic” processes in and of themselves are somehow inherently superior to non-“democratic” processes. As already stated, if you wish to denigrate democracy, please do so directly and openly. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of perfectly valid arguments in favor of changing the system of selecting Presidents to something more in line with the NPVIC. They just are more complex than, "it’s more democratic and empowers “We the People!” But that \*is \*the heart of it, the idea that the people should control the government. Perhaps you simply disagree, for reasons the rest of us are left to infer in the absence of an actual explanation. As an addendum, if you want to poke fun at the Constitution too, you certainly may, but that doesn’t really help you. Oh well, as Lincoln said, “Government of the dirt, by the dirt, and for the dirt”. Guess we’re stuck with it forever, huh? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/364 "2019-05-31T16:35:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As already stated, if you wish to denigrate democracy, please do so directly and openly. > > But that \*is \*the heart of it, the idea that the people should control the government. Perhaps you simply disagree, for reasons the rest of us are left to infer in the absence of an actual explanation. As an addendum, if you want to poke fun at the Constitution too, you certainly may, but that doesn’t really help you. > > Oh well, as Lincoln said, “Government of the dirt, by the dirt, and for the dirt”. Guess we’re stuck with it forever, huh? People do control the government. Until the people disagree with judicial fiat. Anyways, we have an amendment process so I’m not sure what the complaint is. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/365 "2019-05-31T16:49:58Z")
> [@KMS94](#): > > United States of America = American Yes; note that America is a _subset_ of North America. (And I recall two instances where ‘North America’ was used in conversation with me to convey a grandiosity greater than a simple ‘U.S.A.’ or ‘America.’) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/366 "2019-06-13T17:21:24Z")
[Oregon adds its 7 EV’s.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/12/politics/oregon-joins-national-popular-vote-compact/index.html) That’s 196 now, with 270 needed. Gov. Kate Brown said, correctly, “I think it will encourage candidates to spend more time in states like ours, candidates who are running for president speaking directly to our voters,” she added. “I think it will help encourage them to talk about issues that. …Orgeonians care more about. And I think it’s really important for Oregon to be part of the national conversation regarding the presidential election”. [Maine may be next](http://legislature.maine.gov/LawMakerWeb/dockets.asp?ID=280071841) despite a promised veto. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/367 "2019-06-16T21:10:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Oregon adds its 7 EV’s.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/12/politics/oregon-joins-national-popular-vote-compact/index.html) That’s 196 now, with 270 needed. Gov. Kate Brown said, correctly, “I think it will encourage candidates to spend more time in states like ours, candidates who are running for president speaking directly to our voters,” she added. “I think it will help encourage them to talk about issues that. …Orgeonians care more about. And I think it’s really important for Oregon to be part of the national conversation regarding the presidential election”. > > [Maine may be next](http://legislature.maine.gov/LawMakerWeb/dockets.asp?ID=280071841) despite a promised veto. Governor Brown is wrong. Oregon will be ignored even more than it currently is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/368 "2019-06-16T21:26:25Z")
Why would it be ignored? The people there would be just as worth talking to as the people anywhere else. Anywhere a politician can fill a stadium, they’ll have reason to go. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/369 "2019-06-16T23:51:42Z")
Just looking at the graphic in the the 538 article that was posted up-thread, all states that support this compact are either reliably democratic, or usually lean that way. That would explain why it’s not likely to become a thing anytime soon: it would need the support of swing states. I think it would be easier just to try to win those states, which leads to this question: if Democrats can flip states, would they need this legislation? I’m as lefty as they come these days, but I think the Democrats who come up with this interstate popular vote shit just don’t get it. Democrats need to stop concentrating in cities and start going out into the lion’s den of Trump country and explain why they should siphon off some GOP support. If Democrats can win the governor’s mansion in Kansas, then all is not lost. Enough of the Fox network boycott crap, too, while we’re at it. I understand you’re pissed at Sean Hannity, but who gives a crap about him: turn some of his viewers into voters. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/370 "2019-06-17T01:06:29Z")
You’re making the same mistake that Republicans do, assuming that Democrats just support this because it would be mechanically advantageous to Democrats. People actually support it because it supports democracy and fairness. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/371 "2019-06-17T01:31:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re making the same mistake that Republicans do, assuming that Democrats just support this because it would be mechanically advantageous to Democrats. People actually support it because it supports democracy and fairness. Bullshit. If it was something about “democracy and fairness”, you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle, and you’d have gotten people pumping strong for it before the 2000 election. Not shockingly, the idea was formulated in 2001, after the Bush win, and pushed strongly starting in 2006, after Bush had won again. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/372 "2019-06-17T02:00:27Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Bullshit. > > If it was something about “democracy and fairness”, you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle. That’s a laugh. When was the last time Republicans were for democracy and fairness? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/373 "2019-06-17T02:03:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re making the same mistake that Republicans do, assuming that Democrats just support this because it would be mechanically advantageous to Democrats. People actually support it because it supports democracy and fairness. Not really. I’m pointing out that Democrats, who are a demographically diverse coalition living in more heavily populated areas, view American democracy as one person, one vote, whereas people in less populated areas who tend to be more inclined to vote Republican have a different view. They like having representation skewed in their favor and don’t really see the need to give it up. So what are you gonna do? Campaign harder to make them give up that representation…or maybe try to find ways to sell the party better? What I’m talking about here addresses a lot of the other threads/issues that are active right now, including impeachment. Democrats are beyond pissed right now at Trump’s America that they’re allowing him to get away with high crimes and misdemeanors. They’d be less inclined to be so forgiving, and Republicans in the Senate would be less inclined to protect Trump, if only Democrats could figure out a way to make their message resonate with the rest of the country, instead of their base. Republicans control American politics because they view politics as war, and they are conquering not only the minds of individual voters, but they’re conquering territory, politically speaking. Democrats are delusional, and doubling down on power they don’t have. Seems pretty fucking stupid to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/374 "2019-06-17T02:17:59Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Bullshit. > > If it was something about “democracy and fairness”, you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle, and you’d have gotten people pumping strong for it before the 2000 election. Not shockingly, the idea was formulated in 2001, after the Bush win, and pushed strongly starting in 2006, after Bush had won again. But just because something has been adopted by partisans doesn’t make it suspect. For example, Dems have pushed climate change as an issue for years; and it IS an issue. The interest in the popular vote of course would become more real because in 2000, the last winner of the White House but loser of the popular vote was more than a century in the past. It was often viewed as something so silly that it just would never happen — like evangelicals lining up to elect a guy who everyone knows cheats on his wife with porn stars. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/375 "2019-06-17T10:30:08Z")
In a close nation-wide election there’s roughly a 1% chance that the popular vote margin will be less than 10,000. 2% for less than 20,000. (If the election is NOT close it probably won’t matter much whether you have NPVIC or not.) A swing of 20,000 votes or so can be achieved by tomfoolery (e.g. rigged voting machines or biased handling of mail-in votes) in just one state. Remember: Elections are not federally regulated. Imagine the 2000 Florida fiasco and multiply by fifty for the fifty states. If NPVIC is passed, Presidential elections will no longer be decided by electors. They’ll be decided by lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/376 "2019-06-17T10:40:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In a close nation-wide election there’s roughly a 1% chance that the popular vote margin will be less than 10,000. 2% for less than 20,000. (If the election is NOT close it probably won’t matter much whether you have NPVIC or not.) > > A swing of 20,000 votes or so can be achieved by tomfoolery (e.g. rigged voting machines or biased handling of mail-in votes) in just one state. Remember: Elections are not federally regulated. Imagine the 2000 Florida fiasco and multiply by fifty for the fifty states. > > If NPVIC is passed, Presidential elections will no longer be decided by electors. They’ll be decided by lawyers. Or the House of Representatives. Good post, btw. In any case, it’s foolish for us to believe that conservative-leaning states are going to go along with interstate popular vote pacts when that would likely reduce their state voting power. Worse, if you think efforts to suppress voting and expel immigrants are bad now, just wait until something like this starts becoming a thing. It’s a waste of time; just start visiting Wisconsin and Michigan once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/377 "2019-06-17T11:02:06Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Bullshit. > > If it was something about “democracy and fairness”, you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle In 2016, there was a concerted Russian attempt to influence our democracy, including (among other things) [attempted intrusion to voter databases in 39 states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections#Intrusions_into_state_voter-registration_systems). If attempts to stop this were about “democracy and fairness” (which, let’s be clear, they absolutely are), you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle, right? [Ha ha, as if](https://www.kentucky.com/opinion/editorials/article120718538.html). Not only did McConnell make it clear that he’d treat any attempt to bring up Russia’s interference as partisan, he then [blamed Obama for not speaking out about it](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/7/18535373/mcconnell-mueller-report-speech-obama-russian-interference). “Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining” is one thing; this is McConnell pissing on my leg, then saying, “Should we let someone who wets their pants run the country?” I have to wonder - did you think this through? Like, at all? If one party consistently benefits from attacks on our democracy, _why the fuck would you expect bipartisan support for a spirited defense for our democracy_? The republican party isn’t against this because it’s “not about democracy and fairness”; they’re against it because they directly benefit from the attacks on our democracy, and are the direct source of many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/378 "2019-06-17T12:30:22Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Bullshit. > > If it was something about “democracy and fairness”, you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle, and you’d have gotten people pumping strong for it before the 2000 election. Not shockingly, the idea was formulated in 2001, after the Bush win, and pushed strongly starting in 2006, after Bush had won again. This is an astonishing assertion in the face of GOP legislators doing everything in their power to suppress minority votes across the country (North Carolina, come on down! Georgia, here’s looking at you, kid!). When Republicans start to even be willing to discuss Rep. Don Beyer’s Fair Representation Act, then you might find a tinge of agreement from me but for right now their stated policy (Hi there, Mitch McConnell) is that _more democracy is bad for them._ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/379 "2019-06-17T13:39:12Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Bullshit. > > If it was something about “democracy and fairness”, you’d get support for it from both sides of the aisle Upon what evidence do you base your belief that the Republicans have any interest in that instead of their own partisan advantage? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797/380 "2019-06-17T13:40:20Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Governor Brown is wrong. Oregon will be ignored even more than it currently is. It couldn’t be taken for granted any more than it already is. But their votes would suddenly become worth courting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-proposed-national-popular-vote-interstate-compact/805797.md?page=20)