# The Propriety of Making Mexico Pay for the Wall **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338 "2017-01-27T20:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/1 "2017-01-27T20:05:39Z")
There’s been an enormous amount of discussion of Trump’s claim that he will build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. But this seems to have focused on whether Trump can or will do this. What I’m thinking is that even if he can somehow or other do this, it’s morally wrong to do this. And this is separate from whether the wall itself is morally right or not. IMO every government has the right - and obligation - to put the interests of its citizens above the interests of others. This would be the justification for opposing illegal immigration to begin with. But this applies to the Mexican government as well, not just the US government. And it doesn’t seem to be in the interests of the Mexican people to build the wall to begin with, let alone to pay for it. So ISTM that the US forcing Mexico to pay for a wall that entirely serves US interests is just an example of imperialism and the strong oppressing the weak. It would be different if the Mexican government was doing some wrong by not having a wall, and the US was forcing them to stop doing that. But I don’t think the Mexican government has any obligation to stop its citizens from sneaking into the US. That’s a US law and confers no obligations on Mexico. Again, the above is all true even if you oppose any sort of illegal immigration and want to deport every single one of them, and believe the wall is the best idea ever. So I’m hoping to keep these issues separate. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/2 "2017-01-27T20:10:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So ISTM that the US forcing Mexico to pay for a wall that entirely serves US interests is just an example of imperialism and the strong oppressing the weak. Yes, that is exactly what it is. America First MEANS putting America’s interests before any other country. Unfortunately for Trump and followers, I don’t think Mexico is weak enough to succumb to that pressure without us using military might. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/3 "2017-01-27T20:19:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, that is exactly what it is. America First MEANS putting America’s interests before any other country. That has broad meaning. A lot of people would agree that you need to put the interests of your family members above those in other families. But that doesn’t extend to extorting from other people on behalf of your family. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/4 "2017-01-27T20:25:09Z")
Well “extortion” on a global scale may be considered a little different than family to family. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/5 "2017-01-27T20:27:44Z")
But IF this silly plan is actually executed, AND he is able to make Mexico pay for it somehow, depending on the reasons they pay for it, then yes, it could be the Strong making the Weak do something. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/6 "2017-01-27T22:04:01Z")
I would agree that it would be the general expectation that a country keep unwanted people out rather than that it keeps its own people in. We could complain that Mexico isn’t a particularly great country, in terms of economic freedom, education, etc. despite having a country right next door sending them tons of money every year and providing a pretty accessibly model for what life looks like if you’re willing to modernize. But, frankly, so long as emigration is legal and the government isn’t practicing ethnic cleansing or taking political prisoners, every country should be free to run itself the way that it wants to. Mexico has every right to be a giant retirement community even for those that were born there. That all said, the wall can be expected to do almost nothing to prevent immigration. If we wanted to do something about that, we would remove the minimum wage, start building barracks-style apartment buildings with super cheap rent, and offer incentives for people to get into farming, dishwashing, and other low-pay, low-skill jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/7 "2017-01-27T23:21:25Z")
The entire Wall theme is all about Who’s the Biggest Bully on the Playground, and the thrill sycophantic (aka ‘authoritarian orientation’) people get from identifying with the Biggest Bully. And, oh, a bit of We White People Will Show You Brown People Who’s Boss!!!11!!! So, yeah: there is no propriety, and no ethical sense involved in this at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/8 "2017-01-27T23:35:21Z")
Trump came up with a “clever” way to make Mexico pay for the wall. Impose an anti-Mexico import tax, and use that to pay for the wall. I suspect Mexico will stop supplying the US with legal goods and instead sell them to Europe. That could put a lot of Mexican truck drivers out of work. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/9 "2017-01-27T23:37:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That has broad meaning. A lot of people would agree that you need to put the interests of your family members above those in other families. But that doesn’t extend to extorting from other people on behalf of your family. If the fence between your yard and your neighbor’s falls down, who should pay to fix it? If both put the “interest of their family” first then it won’t get built. Of course that’s a terrible analogy since in this case the wall is a total boondoggle that will accomplish nothing and no sane person thinks should actually get built. More like one neighbor wants to build a 20 foot high electric fence with razor wire and machine gun nests every 5 feet and a moat filled with sharks with lasers on their heads and expects the other to pay for it all. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/10 "2017-01-27T23:49:55Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Trump came up with a “clever” way to make Mexico pay for the wall. Impose an anti-Mexico import tax, and use that to pay for the wall. > > I suspect Mexico will stop supplying the US with legal goods and instead sell them to Europe. That could put a lot of Mexican truck drivers out of work. Probably China. No TPP and imposing tariffs on Mexico? China will sign a free trade deal with them. It’d be a fantastic geoeconomic move for them. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/11 "2017-01-28T10:38:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So ISTM that the US forcing Mexico to pay for a wall that entirely serves US interests is just an example of imperialism and the strong oppressing the weak. Is it, but that’s a good thing in Trump’s book. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/12 "2017-01-28T11:47:22Z")
Given the impossibility of patrolling this wall; I suspect that Mexican teenagers will have great fun blowing bits of it up. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/13 "2017-01-28T12:03:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What I’m thinking is that even if he can somehow or other do this, it’s morally wrong to do this. You could apply this to many of his proposals, such as bringing back torture, stealing Iraq’s oil, killing the family members of terrorists, applying stop and frisk nationwide, tightening up the libel law so he can go after media critics, going after government agencies that investigate the hoax of global warming, and so on. It’s a running theme. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/14 "2017-01-28T14:37:38Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Trump came up with a “clever” way to make Mexico pay for the wall. Impose an anti-Mexico import tax, and use that to pay for the wall. > > I suspect Mexico will stop supplying the US with legal goods and instead sell them to Europe. That could put a lot of Mexican truck drivers out of work. Actually, what that would do is make US pay for the wall. A Mexican factory produces a widget. Widget costs $100. Send it to the US, a tax of 20% is imposed. Widget is sold at Walmart for $120. Bang, US citizens have paid for the wall. Alternately, if that makes widgets too expensive - or non-competitive - then widgets will be sold to someone else or not produced at all. This reduces competition and in theory increases prices through fewer low-cost alternatives. In this case we pay for a wall. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/15 "2017-01-28T15:15:02Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Actually, what that would do is make US pay for the wall. > > A Mexican factory produces a widget. Widget costs $100. > > Send it to the US, a tax of 20% is imposed. Widget is sold at Walmart for $120. Bang, US citizens have paid for the wall. > > Alternately, if that makes widgets too expensive - or non-competitive - then widgets will be sold to someone else or not produced at all. This reduces competition and in theory increases prices through fewer low-cost alternatives. In this case we pay for a wall. I wish those who advocated increased corporate taxes would follow the same logic when it came to the consumer ultimately paying. Actually I think it more likely that the US consumer would bear only some of the increased cost. The producer bears the rest. Producers can, if they fear they may lose market share, reduce profits on each widget sold. It all depends if there are non Mexican competitors supplying widgets. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/16 "2017-01-28T15:20:07Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I wish those who advocated increased corporate taxes would follow the same logic when it came to the consumer ultimately paying. > > Actually I think it more likely that the US consumer would bear only some of the increased cost. The producer bears the rest. Producers can, if they fear they may lose market share, reduce profits on each widget sold. It all depends if there are non Mexican competitors supplying widgets. Aren’t corporate taxes only on profit? That’s a small portion of the total revenue. A tariff is basically a tax on the entire revenue stream. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/17 "2017-01-28T15:29:45Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Actually, what that would do is make US pay for the wall. > > A Mexican factory produces a widget. Widget costs $100. > > Send it to the US, a tax of 20% is imposed. Widget is sold at Walmart for $120. Bang, US citizens have paid for the wall. > > Alternately, if that makes widgets too expensive - or non-competitive - then widgets will be sold to someone else or not produced at all. This reduces competition and in theory increases prices through fewer low-cost alternatives. In this case we pay for a wall. Yep. The well to do republicans that voted for him don’t care about that extra 20%. The rest of his clan don’t understand that this is a tax on them. 40% of ‘illegal’ immigrants come by plane. And just over stay their visa’s. I predict that about 1-2 miles of a wall will be built, and Trump will be proud. It will give Trump photo opportunities and then will be quickly forgotten for some new crisis that may or may not be real. This wall will go down in history as a monument to his stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/18 "2017-01-28T15:46:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Aren’t corporate taxes only on profit? That’s a small portion of the total revenue. > A tariff is basically a tax on the entire revenue stream. Yes, corporate taxes are on profit. But you can be sure that any extra costs, as far as possible, will be placed ultimately on the consumer. Next years profits will be maximized to offset this years increased tax. Sure, the corporation will probably also bear some of the increased tax increase, but the increased tax is essentially an increased cost. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/19 "2017-01-28T16:01:25Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Yes, corporate taxes are on profit. But you can be sure that any extra costs, as far as possible, will be placed ultimately on the consumer. Next years profits will be maximized to offset this years increased tax. Sure, the corporation will probably also bear some of the increased tax increase, but the increased tax is essentially an increased cost. Which means a very small increase in cost to the consumer. Not enough to endlessly cut taxes. Tax cuts don’t have all the benefits claimed except for increased profits. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338/20 "2017-01-28T21:02:05Z")
China didn’t make the Mongols pay for the Great Wall of China, East Germany didn’t demand that West Germany pay for the Berlin Wall, and the Romans didn’t ask the Scots to pay for Hadrian’s Wall. America is a richer country than Mexico, and it’s the American government that wants the wall. I don’t support the idea of a wall anyway (Immigration from mexico is roughly at a standstill, the Mexican fertility rate is at 2.2 and declining, so this is mostly a non-problem anyway). But in general, if America does want a wall then we should pay for it. This is nothing but sadistic bullying of a weaker neighbor. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propriety-of-making-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/778338.md?page=2)