# The Public Option is Not Dead, But Liars are Trying to Kill It **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561 "2010-02-26T19:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/61 "2010-02-28T04:52:49Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > The typical conservative truculence aside, a point about that “Cadillac” health plan tax: it is a [tax on the middle class](http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/17/cadillac-tax-in-health-plan-would-hit-middle-class-hard/), not just the CEOs. The rich don’t really need health insurance, they can pay for everything out of pocket. No rich would think like that. They expect and get the best deals, the lowest interest rates and damn well expect great health coverage. It is part of their entitlement programs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/62 "2010-02-28T05:00:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Stop right there. This thread is NOT about “the influence of lying on decisions of public policy.” I’m surprised you would make that claim only 2 sentences after you cited and quoted the thread title: **The Public Option is Not Dead, But Liars are Trying to Kill It**. The thread has fuck-all to do with public policy in general. It is only about this one public policy. > > The rest of your post falls apart, because you are trying to redefine the debate to be inclusive of other public policies, when, as you noted, it is only about the health care bill. In fact, the rest of your post is more like some shit from the Pit: it’s basically a rant against what you perceive to be the left’s willingness to be dishonest if it will further their cause. Ooooohhhh. So, my mistake was generalizing, eh? I see. So we might imagine that there are people aghast at lying about health care, but perfectly sanguine about lies involving abortion laws. And this makes it all OK. Garbage. As though there’s some principled reason that some public policies, or even this particular one, is so sacrosant as to be off-limits for lies, but OTHER public policies conveniently are perfectly OK to lie about. Hah! Hah! You slay me. Were you typing that with a straight face? It’s true that this is a rant about the left’s willingness to be dishonest if it furthers their cause. And that rant is occasioned by the Left’s griping about the Right’s willingness to lie to further THEIR cause. (“I’m shocked, shocked to discover gambling going on here!” “Your winnings, sir.” “Oh, yes, thank you.”) This thread is not about health care per se; it’s about the shocked offense taken at the lies used by the Right to scuttle it. And that shocked offense is revealed to be a pose, a sham, a stance taken solely for convenience. If you wish to rail about the substance of the lies told, go right ahead. I’ve said before it’s a disgrace to throw “death panels” into this debate. I’m right there with you. But don’t you DARE act as though the idea of lying itself offends you, unless you can point me to the places you’ve taken the lies on your side to task. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/63 "2010-02-28T05:10:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ooooohhhh. > > So, my mistake was generalizing, eh? > > I see. So we might imagine that there are people aghast at lying about health care, but perfectly sanguine about lies involving abortion laws. And this makes it all OK. > > Garbage. As though there’s some principled reason that some public policies, or even this particular one, is so sacrosant as to be off-limits for lies, but OTHER public policies conveniently are perfectly OK to lie about. Hah! Hah! You slay me. Were you typing that with a straight face? …and now you are trying to put words in my mouth. I never said that lying, from anyone, was okay. You just made that shit up, right now. > [@](#): > > It’s true that this is a rant about the left’s willingness to be dishonest if it furthers their cause. And that rant is occasioned by the Left’s griping about the Right’s willingness to lie to further THEIR cause. (“I’m shocked, shocked to discover gambling going on here!” “Your winnings, sir.” “Oh, yes, thank you.”) **This thread is not about health care per se; it’s about the shocked offense taken at the lies used by the Right to scuttle it**. Wrong. Read the thread title. The thread title you quoted in your previous post. It’s about one public policy, not all public policies. If you want to discuss “the shocked offense taken at the lies used by the Right” to scuttle this bill, or to support another, or whatever, start another thread. THIS thread is about the public health care bill and the lies being told to try and kill it. > [@](#): > > And that shocked offense is revealed to be a pose, a sham, a stance taken solely for convenience. If you wish to rail about the substance of the lies told, go right ahead. I’ve said before it’s a disgrace to throw “death panels” into this debate. I’m right there with you. But don’t you DARE act as though the idea of lying itself offends you, unless you can point me to the places you’ve taken the lies on your side to task. I’d tell you not to dare stuff, but you’ve already jumped the gun and tried to portray me as saying things I didn’t say. Did you have some point to make about the topic under discussion, or did you just come in here to screech? Your faux outrage is ridiculous. Your whole rant, now admitted, should be taken to the Pit, where it belongs. I would have thought that someone with your fancy schmancy title would know that’s where rants go. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/64 "2010-02-28T05:15:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … and (b) absolutely and completely disgusting to watch. It’s disgusting alright. I’ll tell you what is disgusting is, we have these clowns in Washington, spreading lies to deliberately scare the crap out of people, for their own selfish reasons. I don’t really believe they are interested in the well being of anyone except themselves, and the dollars they get from lobbyists and insurance companies. THAT is what is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/65 "2010-02-28T05:20:25Z")
Putting aside the fact that people in politics lie about their opponents, I think the public option IS dead, for the reasons that Nate Silver gives [here](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/02/few-final-thoughts-on-ublicpay.html). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/66 "2010-02-28T05:22:25Z")
There are some pretty robust egos here, to be sure. But are you challenging someone to go through the archives and search their personal histories to cite quotes proving that they said something? I mean, man, talk about a vanity search! And post the results here so they can prove something to you? You don’t ask much, do you? . Liberal hypocrisy isn’t the number one threat to the Republic, cognitive dissonance is, so mind your manners. Besides, if lib hyp becomes the primary substance of your discourse, you run the risk of becoming tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/67 "2010-02-28T05:48:51Z")
The number one threat to the Republic is giant dinosaur robots, but that’s neither here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/68 "2010-02-28T13:55:34Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s disgusting alright. I’ll tell you what is disgusting is, we have these clowns in Washington, spreading lies to deliberately scare the crap out of people, for their own selfish reasons. > > I don’t really believe they are interested in the well being of anyone except themselves, and the dollars they get from lobbyists and insurance companies. > > THAT is what is disgusting. There are principled reasons to oppose universal health care. To the extent that a congressman opposes it because his corporate handlers bid him to oppose it, instead of out of conviction in a principled reason, is in fact disgusting. I agree. I don’t really hear too much reliance here on the view that it’s possible to oppose this notion on principled grounds. And I don’t hear much support here for the notion that lies in support of a cause are contemptible, either. So my conclusion is that the passion and outrage expressed over health care and the bills attempting to change it arise simply because of the desire for a particular end result. Although it doesn’t apply here, if there were an industry that were subverting congressmen in the other direction – that is, an industry pressuring congressmen to vote for UHC because adoption of it would be financially beneficial to them – we wouldn’t here much outrage about that here on the SDMB. So I say again: stop whining about the lying. That’s not your collective problem, and you (the collective you) don’t mind the lying when it helps you. So complaining about the lying is transparent crap. Your gripe is that the lying isn’t helping the cause you support. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/69 "2010-02-28T14:37:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are principled reasons to oppose universal health care. … > I don’t really hear too much reliance here on the view that it’s possible to oppose this notion on principled grounds. … > > So my conclusion is that the passion and outrage expressed over health care and the bills attempting to change it arise simply because of the desire for a particular end result. … > So I say again: stop whining about the lying. That’s not your collective problem, and you (the collective you) don’t mind the lying when it helps you. So complaining about the lying is transparent crap. Your gripe is that the lying isn’t helping the cause you support. No. Why? Because it seems that ALL we get is some version of “they’re coming to get you”. I’d love to see and hear the reasoned arguments get more air time. But no, Instead we get the “death panel pull the plug commie take over” stuff. See, that’s part of what makes it so annoying. The people doing it think we are all so damned stupid, and “we the people” are confirming it. I know there are reasoned arguments, but where are they? They sure do’t get much air time or attention. [ol] [li]How do we run it so it’s not a bureaucratic mess[/li][li]How do we pay for it all without raising taxes / fees too high[/li][li]How do we handle deductibles[/li][li]How do we get payment to service providers without making them wait forever[/li][li]How do we provide care for those who need it most, efficiently, quickly, and how do we decide who gets served first[/li][li]What has worked or what has not worked in other countries (let’s not reinvent the wheel, let’s learn from their mistakes)[/li][/ol] etc etc etc. But no, instead we get various versions of “OH MY GAWD WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/70 "2010-02-28T15:47:41Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But no, instead we get various versions of “OH MY GAWD WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE”. Yes. And that sucks. I want to win this debate, but I don’t want to “win” it this way. I’m convinced this is a poor idea, but I’m even more convinced in the value of an informed populace guiding public policy through representative democracy. We are missing the “informed” part here. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/71 "2010-02-28T16:21:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. And that sucks. I want to win this debate, but I don’t want to “win” it this way. I’m convinced this is a poor idea, but I’m even more convinced in the value of an informed populace guiding public policy through representative democracy. > > We are missing the “informed” part here. First, to be clear, this debate is not about lying in general, or even necessarily with respect to healthcare. My thesis is that incorrect polling and interpretation of polling about the healthcare bill affects the behavior of congresspeople, which puts them even further away from what the majority of the populace wants, which leads to more wrongheaded polling results, etc. (Read the OP over and you’ll see that.) Now, when it comes to lying about the healthcare bill, I honesty haven’t heard that much from the Dems and liberals. I didn’t check out the example you cited from the other thread, but it does indeed sound ludicrous. But this would be the exception that proves the rule. I mean, look at the congressional debates: Democrats, in general, were talking about the options that could be created and savings achieved through various programs, including the public option; Republicans were talking about death panels, government takeover of 1/6th of the economy, and “rationing.” There is simply no equivalence. I remember that you declared that you simply reject the premise of healthcare reform, which is that people have a right to healthcare. I can respect that kind of honesty, even if I disagree with the sentiment behind it. But that is simply not how the Republicans have positioned themselves. In fact, I can’t remember a single time when a Pub Senator expressed such a view. Why? Well, part of it is that fearmongering always work better, but also that they know that the vast majority of the population does not agree with it. Instead, they continuously talk about how to get the private sector to provide “universal coverage.” The numbers on single payer, the public option, tort reform and more, are not on their side. Hence, they have taken to making emotional appeals, engaging in arrant lying, and whipping up paranoia. If they truly believed in the supposed libertarian ideals, they wouldn’t be doing this. This is why many have surmised that they are “[a wholly owned subsidiary of the insurance industry](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOQ2GEGm3v0).” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/72 "2010-02-28T17:57:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …And I don’t hear much support here for the notion that lies in support of a cause are contemptible, either… Neither are they equivalent. Lying to start a futile and destructive war is, in my not remotely humble opinion, a gazillion times more contemptible than lying to promote the well-being of our fellow citizens. The former runs about 950 millinixons, the latter barely breaks into the low hundredths. Similarly, lying to promote well-being is vastly less contemptible than lying to obstruct it. Especially when the second set of lies is on constant and repetitive public display, and the first…well, where are they, exactly? What wretched lies are the progressives telling that come anywhere near to the acme of mendacity displayed in “death panel” crap? Is that moral relativism? Oh, dear, I suppose it is. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/73 "2010-02-28T19:12:36Z")
Perhaps someday **Bricker** will provide a few choice examples of these “Democratic lies” he is so upset about not seeing denounced. Something perhaps more recent than a highly-arguable one from 1941, that is. Until then, his ranting can be dismissed as yet another obfuscatory attempt at shit-throwing by someone who has been caught out yet again but refuses to admit it. \* Yet again\*. :rolleyes: IOW, put up or shut up, Counselor. Contribute or withdraw. Which is it to be this time? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/74 "2010-02-28T19:25:19Z")
A pity, too, he was making such progress, lurching away from the path of political error. Why, just the other day I was discussing his case with the Political Commissar for the SDMB. We were examing his file, which is rather modest, actually, barely an inch thick. Not like **Shodan’s** , which is kept in its own building…but I digress. I was just checking to be sure his name was not on the Straight to the Wall List… “Wait a second! This guy is a conservative and a lawyer?” “Well, yes, but he’s making rather good progress! I’m thinking six months at the Jane Fonda Aerobics and Self-Criticism Camp. Tops! Carve off those love handles as well…” Ah, well. Its taking a bit longer than we thought. Educated by Jesuits, you know. Tough conditioning to break. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/75 "2010-02-28T23:49:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Neither are they equivalent. Lying to start a futile and destructive war is, in my not remotely humble opinion, a gazillion times more contemptible than lying to promote the well-being of our fellow citizens. The former runs about 950 millinixons, the latter barely breaks into the low hundredths. > > Similarly, lying to promote well-being is vastly less contemptible than lying to obstruct it. Especially when the second set of lies is on constant and repetitive public display, and the first…well, where are they, exactly? What wretched lies are the progressives telling that come anywhere near to the acme of mendacity displayed in “death panel” crap? > > Is that moral relativism? Oh, dear, I suppose it is. This is my point. To you, the lie to scuttle an anti-abortion law is a cause that “improves the well-being of our fellow citizens.” So, as you say, it’s not really a problem. You’re acknowleding my point, here, in spades. You don’t mind the lie, as long as it’s about something that is (to you) worthy. So your complaint about the lies intended to derail health care is not, “How dare they lie?” but rather “How dare they lie about something that I support?” And when called on it, your defense is an honest one: the RIGHT solution for this issue is the one I’m pushing, so lies that undermine it are contempible and lies that support it are mere peccadillos. You can’t get much more honest about lying than that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/76 "2010-03-01T00:05:31Z")
**Bricker** , do you have some specific instances of lying about the health care bill from the pro- side of the aisle to bring up? ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/77 "2010-03-06T23:58:11Z")
Another poll, this one from Newsweek 2/19/10, found a majority (50%) support the public option: > [@](#): > > Do you favor or oppose this proposal (to change the health care system)? > Favor / Oppose / DK > a. Requiring that all Americans have health insurance, > with the government providing financial help to > those who can’t afford it > 59 / 36 / 5 =100 > b. Requiring most businesses to offer health insurance > to their employees, with tax incentives for small > business owners to do so > 75 / 20 / 5 =100 > c. If health coverage is required for everyone, > imposing fines on individuals who don’t obtain > coverage and on larger businesses that don’t offer it > 28 / 62 / 10 =100 > d. Requiring health insurance companies to cover > anyone who applies, even if they have a pre-existing > medical condition > 76 / 19 / 5 =100 > e. **Creating a government-administered public health > insurance option to compete with private plans > 50 / 42** / 8 =100 > f. Creating a new insurance marketplace – the > Exchange – that allows people without health > insurance to compare plans and buy insurance at > competitive rates > 81 / 13 / 6 =100 > g. Preventing insurance companies from dropping > coverage when people are sick > 59 / 38 / 3 =100 > h. Imposing a tax on insurers who offer the most > expensive health plans, the so-called Cadillac plans, > to help pay for health care reform > 34 / 55 / 11 =100 > > [http://www.newsweek.com/media/84/1001\_ftop\_v2.pdf](http://www.newsweek.com/media/84/1001_ftop_v2.pdf) Note that when the public option is described in more detail, as being modeled on Medicare, support is considerably higher than 50%. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/78 "2010-03-07T02:25:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is my point. To you, the lie to scuttle an anti-abortion law is a cause that “improves the well-being of our fellow citizens.” So, as you say, it’s not really a problem. You’re acknowleding my point, here, in spades. You don’t mind the lie, as long as it’s about something that is (to you) worthy. > > So your complaint about the lies intended to derail health care is not, “How dare they lie?” but rather “How dare they lie about something that I support?” > > And when called on it, your defense is an honest one: the RIGHT solution for this issue is the one I’m pushing, so lies that undermine it are contempible and lies that support it are mere peccadillos. > > You can’t get much more honest about lying than that. I didn’t say that some lies are innocent, based on the intention of the liar. I said that some lies are more repulsive than others, a point too obvious to require stress or illustration. But your point remains, I am surely of lesser clay, my views are clouded with prejudices and biases. Your clear-eyed objectivity and purity of reason are a beacon to us all, however daunting your example. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561/79 "2010-03-07T13:45:58Z")
And we’re still waiting for those choice examples of Democratic lies that we need to denounce to establish our credibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-public-option-is-not-dead-but-liars-are-trying-to-kill-it/530561.md?page=3)