# The Purpose of the Death Penalty Is To . . . . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2000, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734 "2000-09-19T16:23:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/21 "2000-09-19T20:58:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\*Ok, MGibson, there is a very simply difference between kidnapping someone and murdering someone, whether the state does it, or civilians do it. \*\* Obviously there’s a difference between kidnapping and murder and the severity of each one. I simply inserted the word kidnapping where the other person had murder to show the error of his point. Just because there are laws against murder doesn’t mean that executions show the hypocrisy of the state. Simply put it isn’t murder to execute a murderer any more then it is kidnapping to lock up a kidnapper. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Murder-take a way a life, killing, can’t be undone. > Kidnap-detaining someone, keeping them for ransom, person can return to normal life. > So, if I am wrongly imprisoned, there stands a chance that I will be released one day, justice will be served. > But if I am wrongly imprisoned, and then killed, then what? “Oops, we made a mistake. Better luck next time.” > That’s the difference. > One involves taking a life, one does not. > > \*\* None of what you said shows the death penalty to be hypocritical. Like I said there are valid reasons to being opposed to the death penalty. But the hypocritical arguement just doesn’t hold any water. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/22 "2000-09-19T21:03:41Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by beagledave \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > If that’s the game you want to play, no problem. > > What the government does is not “murder.” > > > > \*\* > > Well thanks…but of course “I” never accused the government of murder, so don’t put words in my mouth. > > “You” DID accuse the government of kidnapping. \*\* I didn’t accuse them of kidnapping. My example was suppose to be a ridiculous counter to the person who said they did murder. From his standpoint if the government “murders” when they execute people then they must also “kidnap” when they lock people up. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Murder is a legal concept. So I don’t think abortionists murder (at least in the U.S.), nor does the state murder…rather it “kills” when it executes \*\* Well that’s a pretty tricky word. Obviously some people think that executions are murder regardless of the guilt of the executed. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/23 "2000-09-19T21:14:18Z")
Didn’t Britain abolish the death penalty after they found out that they had executed one innocent man? BTW, I think banishment is a TERRIBLE idea. There’s always a chance they’ll come back and create havoc…ie, Napoleon, Lenin, etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/24 "2000-09-19T21:18:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\* > 2. One of the founding principles of the US is that guilt must always be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. \*\* Actually, **friedo** , you’re wrong. The standard is "beyond a _reasonable_ doubt. If you had to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, you’d have a very hard time convicting anyone who came along. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/25 "2000-09-19T21:32:30Z")
The death penalty, IMHO, is about justice. There are certain crimes that are so heinous (how I love that word!) that the only appropriate punishment is death. Murder, I believe (especially pre-meditated, planned-out murder) being chief among them. As for the talk of a possible misapplication of justice… Yes, it certainly is possible. Until every citizen’s life is recorded by the government at every minute (God forbid this should happen), there will always be a possibility that an innocent could be executed. Granted. However, approving prison vs. execution doesn’t really address this issue. If someone is discovered to be innocent 30 years after the conviction, and you set him free, how **pepperlandgirl** is that justice?? You can’t give the guy back the 20 years you (not you, personally, of course) forced him to live in the hellhole of prison. The chance of a miscarriage of justice occuring is just as great if the person is imprisoned than if they are executed. One more point: The death penalty reduces the crime rate in one sure way. The criminal will never kill anyone again. Even if left in prison, he can still kill. Once executed, however, he is no longer a threat to anyone again. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/26 "2000-09-19T21:40:34Z")
I think the last person executed in Britain was about 40 years ago. It was a woman (Ruth Evans?) and there was doubt about how disturbed she was (I only remember this vaguely). We had a case where one youth shot a approaching policeman after another youth called out ‘Let him have it’. Did he mean kill, or give up the weapon? In any case, the gunman was too young to hang (under 16), but the other youth (mentally retarded, if I remember) was over 16 , so he got executed. We recently released some people after 16 or so years. They were accused of bombings and sentenced to long jail terms, but it turned out the evidence was faked. Hard to pardon a dead man… I’m sorry I don’t remember the details better, but my opinions are: - the purpose of the death penalty is revenge. - the death penalty doesn’t stop murder. Britain has far less murders per head than the US. We don’t have executions, you do. - you will inevitably kill innocent people if you execute. - as another poster said, the reasons for murder are mainly domestic and economic. Also most killers don’t expect to get caught. - rich people get off more in the court system (everywhere) ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/27 "2000-09-19T21:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > There are certain crimes that are so heinous (how I love that word!) that the only appropriate punishment is death. Agreed, there are some truly terrible crimes, but I don’t see a clear link between them and death as a deserved punishment. Some kind of punishment, yes, but why death specifically? > [@](#): > > The chance of a miscarriage of justice occuring is just as great if the person is imprisoned than if they are executed. That doesn’t make an innocent man’s death any more acceptable, does it? Are you really suggesting that death is comparable to time spent in prison, however long? That person will get some time to spend outside prison, however little, whereas the executed prisoner gets no comeback. > [@](#): > > The death penalty reduces the crime rate in one sure way. The criminal will never kill anyone again. Even if left in prison, he can still kill. Once executed, however, he is no longer a threat to anyone again. True, but there’s no deterrent value, and as other posters have pointed out, many (most?) murders are crimes of passion (I’d love some stats on that), where the perpetrator hasn’t sat down and considered the consequences. If life sentences meant life in prison, then executions are no more than revenge killings. Of course, the fact that some prisoners don’t serve life is a problem with the current sentencing system that needs addressing rather than a reason to increase executions. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/28 "2000-09-19T22:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The death penalty reduces the crime rate in one sure way. The criminal will never kill anyone again. Even if left in prison, he can still kill. Once executed, however, he is no longer a threat to anyone again. An irrelevant observation. By this reasoning, the death penalty would have the same effect when applied to rapists, drug dealers and those convicted of violent assault. All of these crimes continue to happen in prisons; are you suggesting that persons found guilty of these crimes should be subject to the death penalty also? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/29 "2000-09-19T22:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mattk \* > \*\* > Agreed, there are some truly terrible crimes, but I don’t see a clear link between them and death as a deserved punishment. Some kind of punishment, yes, but why death specifically? \*\* Why is life in prison any more appropriate than death? I suppose part of the answer could be seen in the fact that murder (at least IMHO) is the “ultimate” crime. If anything is as deserving of the ultimate punishment (death), this is. > [@](#): > > \*\* > That doesn’t make an innocent man’s death any more acceptable, does it? Are you really suggesting that death is comparable to time spent in prison, however long? That person will get some time to spend outside prison, however little, whereas the executed prisoner gets no comeback. \*\* No, I didn’t suggest that at all. What I said was that in terms of being afraid of committing a miscarriage of justice, putting a person in prison is no better than killing him. Now then, if you want to talk about the possibility of making restitution for a wrongful conviction, now you’ve got an argument. > [@](#): > > True, but there’s no deterrent value, and as other posters have pointed out, many (most?) murders are crimes of passion (I’d love some stats on that), where the perpetrator hasn’t sat down and considered the consequences. If life sentences meant life in prison, then executions are no more than revenge killings. Of course, the fact that some prisoners don’t serve life is a problem with the current sentencing system that needs addressing rather than a reason to increase executions. > > \*\* What about deterrant value to the murderer himself. He (or she) will never commit another murder. Even if it doesn’t affect another criminal in the world, that alone suggests value. And as I mentioned earlier, just having someone in prison with no parole doesn’t mean that s/he cannot murder again. It could just as easily be another prisoner, a guard, a prison worker, or the convict could escape. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/30 "2000-09-19T22:51:50Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MGibson \* \*\* [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by beagledave \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > Murder is a legal concept. So I don’t think abortionists murder (at least in the U.S.), nor does the state murder…rather it “kills” when it executes \*\* > > Well that’s a pretty tricky word. Obviously some people think that executions are murder regardless of the guilt of the executed. > > Marc \*\* What’s tricky about it? The definition you cited says “unlawfull” killing. Currently, it IS lawfull to execute some prisoners in some fashion. I am opposed to state sanctioned killing of prisoners. Currently, the law (like the abortion law) is against my wishes. I suppose people can assign whatever meaning to words they might choose, for purposes of debate murder (like manslaughter) is a legal concept. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/31 "2000-09-19T22:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Agreed, there are some truly terrible crimes, but I don’t see a clear link between them and death as a deserved punishment. Some kind of punishment, yes, but why death specifically? \*\* The basics of justice was set down by the code of Hammarabi. An “eye for an eye” is just a simple way of saying the punishment must fit the crime. The most severe crime is the taking of a human life. Therefore the punishment should reflect that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > True, but there’s no deterrent value, and as other posters have pointed out, many (most?) murders are crimes of passion (I’d love some stats on that), where the perpetrator hasn’t sat down and considered the consequences. \*\* I agree that it isn’t a deterrent but I don’t see why that matters. Most people up for the the DP are people who have murdered during an armed robbery. Which incidently isn’t considered a crime of passion. Most people convicted of crimes of passion aren’t convicted of 1st degree murder. So they don’t represent the people on death row. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If life sentences meant life in prison, then executions are no more than revenge killings. Of course, the fact that some prisoners don’t serve life is a problem with the current sentencing system that needs addressing rather than a reason to increase executions. > \*\* If life in prison meant life in prison then I might be willing to end the death penalty. Marc ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/32 "2000-09-19T22:53:03Z")
apologies for the messy quotes above…\ ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2000, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/33 "2000-09-19T22:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > What’s tricky about it? The definition you cited says “unlawfull” killing. Currently, it IS lawfull to execute some prisoners in some fashion. \*\* What’s tricky is that there are a lot of people on this planet with a lot of different definitions. There are plenty of people who classify state sanctioned killing as murder regardless of what reason. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I am opposed to state sanctioned killing of prisoners. Currently, the law (like the abortion law) is against my wishes. \*\* Then I’m sure you’re aware that plenty of pro-life members considering abortions to be murder. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I suppose people can assign whatever meaning to words they might choose, for purposes of debate murder (like manslaughter) is a legal concept. \*\* I’ll go along with that. Marc ---
**Author:** ![el\_mono](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ea666f/32.png) [@el\_mono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/el_mono)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/34 "2000-09-20T00:23:53Z")
No doubt about it, the death penalty is all about revenge. What’s wrong with that? After all, what satisfaction is derrived from locking a convicted capitol criminal away for the rest of his (or her) life. The victim’s family and friends know that the scumbag is still drawing breath, eating three squares, watching cable television and enjoying privileges not available to certain portions of the general public. The mere fact of their continued existence must drive a vicitim’s loved ones to near hysteria! Put the scumbags out of our misery and do it as quickly as possible after the jury hands down the verdict. Another option: Remember the the campy movie “Escape From New York” ? Set up a isolated prison environment somewhere and drop the offenders off. Survival of the fittest! ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/35 "2000-09-20T00:47:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > > “proven murderer”? Do you realize how many “proven murderers” were innocent, but were killed anyway? .\>1 If you stick someone in prison for a few consecutive lifetimes w/o chance for parole, they are going to be there until they die, \>2 > \*\* \>1, No Pepper, I don’t, do you? They have not been able to point to a single wrongful execution in the last 2 decades. \>2… or until they escape, or are paroled, or kill a guard, or… ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/36 "2000-09-20T00:51:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > The death penalty reduces the crime rate in one sure way. The criminal will never kill anyone again. Even if left in prison, he can still kill. Once executed, however, he is no longer a threat to anyone again. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* ZEV for President!!! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/37 "2000-09-20T01:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \>1, No Pepper, I don’t, do you? They have not been able to point to a single wrongful > execution in the last 2 decades. > > ``` > >2.. or until they escape, or are paroled, or kill a guard, or... > > ``` GIve me time on number 1. Number 2. You now what Dan? You ALWAYS mentioned escapes. Please, I beg of you, give me SITES with how many \*\* proven 1st degree murderers. \*\*S have escaped in the past decade. Until you give me those sites, I have no reason to even consider your presense in this debate. Secondly, you have brought up the death of guards. I want statistics on how many guards have been killed in prison by **first degree murderers** And finally, if you give them two consecutive terms without parole **they are not going to be parolled** I have no idea why that concept is so hard for you to grasp. > [@](#): > > The basics of justice was set down by the code of Hammarabi. An “eye for an eye” is just a simple way of > saying the punishment must fit the crime. The most severe crime is the taking of a human life. Therefore the > punishment should reflect that. Lets run with that. When I steal your car, someone gets to steal my car. No, I don’t go to prison, I just lose my car. If I torture you, I get tortured in return. No prison time. Just torture. If I rob you, I get robbed in return. No prison time. Just robbed. Etc etc etc… ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/38 "2000-09-20T01:56:24Z")
- - - Concealed permits have to do with proving the death penalty prevents crime in this way: (US) states that have approved concealed carry permits have seen a decline in most types of violent crime. This would seem to be pretty conclusive evidence that criminals do NOT want to be killed, by either a victim’s gun or the state. - Also the death penalty only concerns revenge as far as the victim’s relatives and friends may be concerned, and even then it’s arguable: they can’t actively participate. The rest of the population may not be concerned exactly _who_ a murderer has killed - they just don’t want to be his next victim. - MC ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/39 "2000-09-20T02:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The basics of justice was set down by the code of Hammarabi. An “eye for an eye” is just a simple way of > > saying the punishment must fit the crime. The most severe crime is the taking of a human life. Therefore the > > punishment should reflect that. > > Lets run with that. > When I steal your car, someone gets to steal my car. No, I don’t go to prison, I just lose my car. > If I torture you, I get tortured in return. No prison time. Just torture. > If I rob you, I get robbed in return. No prison time. Just robbed. > Etc etc etc… \*\* That’s just plain silly. I said it set up the basic concept that justice means the punishment must fit the crime. Wouldn’t you agree that the punishment shouldn’t be in excess of the actual crime? We don’t want people getting their hands chopped of for stealing a carton of cigarettes. Instead it is a misdemeanor with a fine and possibly a couple of months in jail. But then I’m pretty sure you’re just being a wisenheimer. For the charge of 1st degree murder I feel that death is the most fitting punishment for the crime. I’m willing to accept life without parole though. I find nothing ethically wrong with executing someone who’s willing to murder. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2000, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734/40 "2000-09-20T02:07:59Z")
Why does everyone seem to assume that prison is such a great place, so relaxing? From what I’ve seen, read and heard, it ain’t much fun. It is NOT as comfy as most think… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty-is-to/33734.md?page=3)