The Purpose of the Death Penalty Is To . . . . . .

And I can understand an individual’s desire for revenge when a loved one is killed, especially in a brutal fashion.

However, I hold the government to a higher standard. The bloodlust that some pro death penalty proponents show is almost as scary as the killers they wish to execute.

Cost efficiency, protection from future murders, deterrence are all just rationalizations. The public wants the killers dead and the fact that innocent people also get killed, capital punishment is not a deterrant and it is cheaper to imprison for life than to kill doesn’t seem to temper this bloodlust.

Again, this is understandable. I, myself, would be overcome with it if one of mine was murdered. But I am an idividual. I am human. The government is not and should not pander to the publics baser emotions.

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Originally posted by MGibsonI cannot see how someone can think all killing is wrong. If I happen to kill someone who is trying to kill me am I wrong? Anyone who says yes has a peculiar sense of right and wrong. [/qote]

As in English, there is always and exception to the rule, eh? But please allow me to throw a few more examples out into the mix.

[ul][li]A woman is walking down the street late at night and is attacked by a man. Having taken a self-protection course or two, she has her car keys gripped in her hand with the keys sticking out. One of the keys is for her Nissan, and being particularly long, when it enters the man’s eye it penetrates into the fluids surrounding his brain, causing an infection that kills him. She is not even charged with assault.[/li]
[li]A long long time ago I read about a man who woke up because of a noise in his living room. He reached under his bed and pulled out a handgun. He emptied the clip through his closed bedroom door, killing the intruder. This homeowner was later convicted of manslaughter. Why? In a nutshell, too much force - for all he knew, opening the bedroom door and showing his gun would have scared the intruder off - for that matter, turing on the bedroom light and rattling the doorknob would have had the same effect.[/li]
[li]A woman finds out that her husband is sleeping around on her. She intercepts a message indicating that he is meeting his girlfriend at a particular time on a particular day at a particular place two weeks hence. The woman shows up at the rendezvous and kill both her husband and his paramour. She is later convicted of first degree murder.[/li]
[li]The authorities know that Joe Blow has committed a murder. For years they watch his every move, making sure Joe doesn’t do it again. After a prescribed amount of time, the authorities strap Joe to a gurney and administer drugs to stop Joe’s heart.[/ul][/li]
In my first two examples the perpetrators did not intend to kill someone - they were reacting to the heat of the moment. In examples three and four the murderer is not reacting to the heat of the moment; no adreneline is flowing. The perpetrators of both of these crimes has spent some time planning their next move, the plan is thought out well, and the motives are clear and intentional. Examples 3 and 4 are both intentional murder, but #4 is sanctioned by several governments, including China and Libya. And I really hate being classed in with governments with such horrible human rights abuses on their records.

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So they didn’t do anything wrong, right? And that guy who shot into his closet would not have been convicted of manslaughter in Texas. I imagine it varies from state to state.

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Let’s see, in example #3 we have someone who murders two people. In #4 we have the state killing someone who murdered. #3 is wrong and #4 is morally correct. You go by the premise that all killing is wrong. I don’t.

Well let’s not make silly comparisons then. They eat a lot of rice in China and they eat a lot in the United States. I really hate being classed in with governments like that.
They also have prisons. Do you still hate being compared to them?
Marc

I have a belief. If one is a confirmed killer who enjoys killing people, who finds slow death and torture of random innocents pleasurable, who is not actually sorry about it and who no doubt would kill again if given a chance - kill him.

Dispose of the waste of skin.
Fry the sucker.
Blow his brains out.
Don’t waste money keeping him alive that might be spent on other, more deserving prisoners.
John Wayne Gacey was an excellent example.
Bundy was an even better one.
I don’t think Hitler ever actually, personally killed anyone, but through his actions, millions died and had he been caught I would have rooted for the death penalty.
That gang member who readily kills someone at random just to gain entry to a gang needs the ol’ nifty needle to oblivion.

I guess you pacifists with your high principals don’t think of such things. If you have a rabid wolf at your door, you kill it.

Personally, in some instances, I figure that some killers should be killed in the way they murdered their victim and get to experience first hand the fear, pain and horror they inflicted on the other.

On police TV you see robbers walk in to rob a store and without hesitation, murder or try to murder the single cashier behind the counter before getting the register open. These things deserve to live? There are tapes of a group of two or three robbing a small store, and on the way out, one just casually shoots and kills a customer already on the floor, as an afterthought. You want to keep that thing in jail for life, living, eating, enjoying himself?

What are you, nuts? Yeah the Christian Bible says no killing, but from what I heard, the original Jewish word for killing was actually murder. No murder. Execution is another thing. Elsewhere in the Bible it mentions stoning an adulterer to death, so I guess that was an execution sanctioned by Christianity, even though I’d consider screwing a married person less serious than murdering one.

Now, how about those few AIDS carriers, who knew they had the disease and set out to infect as many people as they could, deliberately? They kind of became long term serial killers of unknown numbers because, not only could their contacts get AIDS and die, but until they knew they also had the disease, they could infect others. I don’t think I want them sitting in a climate controlled jail, watching TV, exercising, reading books and whacking off in a rubber glove filled with hand cream.

I want them dead. D-E-A-D! They deliberately set out to kill, in a most horrible way, as many innocents as they could. Don’t even bury them in the prison bone yard. Burn the body into ash and flush it down the toilet with the rest of the crap. Save space and expense on a burial.

A stranger comes up and kills your loved one in a lingering, painful, horrible way. You want him put away for life, to still experience joy, pleasure, happiness, companionship, or do you want him dead?

Think about it Satan. What if you came home to find Drain Bead gutted and raped and the cops had the killer? (As stupid as this sounds, no offense intended.) Should he live or should he die?

Those White boys who dragged that Black guy for miles behind their truck until he died and virtually was sanded into hamburger. Live or die? Think about the fear and agony the man suffered until he lost consciousness through blood loss. Think about those good ol’ boyz whooping it up and cheering in the truck.

My vote? Die. How? Dragged behind trucks driven by Black men.

See Chromium Grin’s post.

Bloodlust directed at the proper people is not negative trait.

Marc

Hope you don’t mind my correcting your post.

Are you a Christian? Do you remember Jesus saying that we should learn to forgive someone seven times seventy times if necessary? Do you recall “forgive us our trespasses even as we forgive those who trespass against us?” ChromiumGrin mentioned an adulterer being (or about to be) stoned to death. I guess he forgot Jesus stepping in and saying, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Are YOU without sin, MGibson? Are YOU, CG?

I am an atheist. And yet there are times when I think I’m a better Christian than the Christians. (Yeah, thinking you’re better than everyone else is supposed to be a sin. It’s supposed to be a comment on other people’s hypocricy.)

In what context is pre-meditated muder “perfectly moral”?

Although I disagree with MGibson on the death penalty…he did NOT say that premeditated murder is moral , but that premeditated killing MAY be moral. Murder is a legal term that applies to UNLAWFUL killing. Currently (sadly), the death penalty is not unlawful in the U.S.

In war, much of the killing is “premeditated” to a certain extent (although perhaps not for a specific individual, most of the time)

Outside of a wartime situation, i can’t think of an instance where premeditated killing is moral to me.

Scary, isn’t it? However, this is a valid emotional response. It is hard to argue with this logic. All the other reasons (cost, deterance and everything else) can be argued reasonably. This is what really seperates pro and anti death penalty proponents.

How can you argue that Ted Bundy didn’t deserve to fry? How can a politician look into the face of a grieving orphan and tell her that the man responsible for her parents death will live forever on her dime? Apparently the politicians of Texas, Florida, New York et al could not. These politicians found it easier to tell me that my dime will be better spent committing the same offences.

I reiterate: The government should be above that.

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Be my guest.

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I am not a Christian nor do I put much stock in fictional characters named Allah or Christ. Oh, I acknowledge that there was a cult leader named Christ 2,000 years ago I just don’t accept his divinity.

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I sure as hell haven’t murdered any one. Punish me for my sins, fine.

So why try using Christian philosophy against me?

Marc

Pre-meditated murder is never moral. However killing someone can be perfectly moral even if planned in advance. <whew> I feel a lot better now that we’ve got that out of the way.

Marc

Huh? :confused:

Please supply your definition of ‘pre-meditated’ and ‘planned in advance’. Also your definition of ‘murder’ and ‘kill’.

First off I can’t say what my opinion on the death penalty is right at this time. While my gut reaction to losing a loved one would be ‘Kill the bastard/bitch’, this debate is causing me to rethink my ‘logical’ position.

jab1:

If you’re referencing the Bible (King James Version) don’t forget the Lord speaking to Moses in Leviticus 24:17 “And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death” and Leviticus 24:21 “And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.”

I’m not trying to turn this into a religious debate. I’m more of an agnostic than anything, but if an athiest is going to reference the bible I figured I’d give him a couple more.

I stand corrected. Christ did intervene. However, if one peruses the Bible, there are many examples of sanctioned killing in it.

None of you bothered answering my question. What would you want if a loved one of yours was horribly, deliberately and premeditatedly murdered by some person who made sure it took awhile? Humans have a dual personality in that they can take the most bloodiest killer and so long as he looks unrepentant, like Bundy did, shove him in the chair and slam on the volts. However, let him look scared, hopeless, sad or tearful, and they’ll have the urge to temper their decision with life in prison.

I guess this is a good thing, but when a mad dog charges around, it becomes necessary to kill it. I don’t want it to breed, to influence anyone, to become a celebrity nor to have idolizing followers.

You there! You and your girl are walking down the street when a gangsta (color optional) walks up, and demands your money. You both give it to him and as he leaves, he blows a hole in your belly and one in your girls head because he didn’t wear a mask and you might identify him. You survive but she didn’t. They catch they guy.

Now what? Killers, depending on the judge, have gotten life and gotten parole in 10 years, or gotten life and built up pretty good life for themselves in prison, or they got death.

You come home one night. A robber slipped into your house and your wife lies gutted on the bed and raped and your 2 year old child has her throat cut so deeply that her head is nearly off. They get the killer. What will you root for?

You ladies, your husband is on his way home. He gets caught by a car jacker who is too impatient to wait for him to get out of the car, so the thug blows his brains out, dumps the body in the road and drives off – to sell the $20,000 car to someone for $1,000. They will sell the parts for $3,000. The jacker is caught. What will you root for?

Ladies, your sweet, 14 year old, pretty as a picture daughter is found in a park, raped, stabbed and left to bleed to death, which she does. They find the 22 year old killer who was let out of jail with a history of rape. What will you want from the jury?

BTW war is sanctioned killing. You might not agree with the reasons for stating it, but you have an option, kill or be killed.

I find it interesting that pro-death penalty always introdue the “WHAT IF…” analogies. Because for most of us that are anti-death penalty, the “what if…” has nothing to do with our feelings. Even if someone killed my BF, the most important person in my world, I would not advocate the death penalty. I don’t care what the circumstances are. I firmly believe the taking of any human life is wrong, and I will not advocate it, even for my own petty revenge.

Well, you have to live with yourself, not I, so I hope that such a thing never happens to you.

I used to be pretty soft on people who do minor crimes, until someone broke into my car and stole some stuff, then I got robbed of some money, and I was still a bit ‘understanding,’ until I got robbed again, and everything came to a screeching stop when I got the shit beat out of me by an enormous drunk, jus’ fer fun - know waddahmean? That took me months to recover from, and consisted of stitches, wires, screws and pain killers.

I’m not sympathetic anymore.

I think it is safe to say that pre-meditated and planned in advance pretty much mean the same thing.

Murder is the immoral or illegal killing of another human being.

Killing is the action of ending a living creatures life.

Thus I can plan to kill something in advance and be completely moral. And yes I know we’re talking about humans here not animals. The fact is I don’t think killing another human being is always wrong.

Marc

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I haven’t used the “what if” phrase once. There’s enough real life examples to where I don’t feel it is needed. So I guess we don’t always use it.

Why is it wrong to take a human life under any circimstance?
Marc

Did you bother to read any of the earlier posts that dealth with this? Your point about personal experience with violence seems to have already been addressed. For example I posted earlier=>

“To be honest, if a close family member of mine was killed, a strong part of me would want that creep to be fried until he bled puss. But our system of justice is just that, a system of justice, not a system of revenge…thats why there is a judicial process, with the final determination of consequence being determined by someone other than the victim(s). That is what elevates us as a society above the assholes who perpetuate their violence.”

Others said similar things. You seem to imply that opposition with the death penalty has to do with a pacifist compasstion toward the criminal…yet as I (and others) have said…it’s not so much about the criminal but what it does to us as a society…following your logic, ALL criminal sentences should be determined by the victim(s) of said crime alone