# The Queer Soup Thread (An attempt to merge some of the queer threads together) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 3, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906 "2005-01-03T22:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/41 "2005-01-04T20:57:47Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > How do you look at with your awards that have your non-preferred name, or pictures of you looking like the wrong sex/gender? Awards: My degrees and awards are all of the intellectual type. They were products of my mind, not my physical sex. _I_ am the person who earned those, regardless of what my body looked like when I earned them. Pictures: Damn, was I a nerd. > [@](#): > > Is it common for people to look at their pre-op and post-op selves as two separate people? I can only speak for myself. For me, the answer is no. At my core, I’m still be the same person I was before my transition, but now with a body and standing in society that matches the person I always was in the first place. My body has changed, and the way society sees me and treats me has changed, but I’m still me. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/42 "2005-01-04T21:29:04Z")
> [@Lazz](#): > > If you mean butch MTFs or FTMs who are and live as total sissies, I do know a handful yes. I guess that’s what I’m asking about. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/43 "2005-01-04T21:42:29Z")
Thanks **Eve** and **Number Six**. I thought the way she had stopped taking credit for anything she’d accomplished as “Bill” and stopped considering old photographs of Bill to be photos of her was strange, but didn’t know if most people felt that way. Not that I know now either, with a sample size of three but I’m going to assume that most people don’t feel that way. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/44 "2005-01-04T23:14:03Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Is it at all common for heterosexual women to fantasize about homosexual male sex and sexuality? There’s more than a little of that, yes. Especially in the internet fanfiction and slash communities. You’d be surprised, in fact, how many lesbians I know who watch gay male porn. They say its a lot gentler than heterosexual porn or lesbian porn (which is mostly made for straight male consumption). > [@](#): > > More simply put, what (not homosexual with homosexual) sexual fantasies are common for homosexuals? Is there anything as commonly found as the heterosexual fantasies about lesbian sex? If I understand the question correctly, I fantasize about other men in a homosexual context. I am male and they are male. I would imagine a pre-op transsexual might fantasize about another person from the reference of the sex they wish to be. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/45 "2005-01-05T02:10:11Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > As always, don’t forget the distinction between being gay or bi, and being out. All your data is going to be skewed by the fact that the only people in your sample group are those who are able to tell people (in some cases, repeatedly, and unsolicited) that they’re gay. > > So is it that being in a middle-class, educated, artistic environment makes people gay, or is it just that it makes them comfortable enough to be out with it? I dunno, but I don’t think it necessarily messes up the “can’t be a choice” argument. (Of course it doesn’t support it, either. I’m not arguing or resisting it one way or the other.) I know I can think of a million things that could’ve been different and would’ve kept me in the closet forever. (And to **Priam**.) I don’t believe that data is going to resolve this issue for most people (actually, the many issues concerned with sexuality). I’d go further and say, given the real problems with data (cf. Churchill’s “I never believe statistics I haven’t falsified myself”), that data _should not_ resolve these issues. (Be one factor, yes - but not a major determinant.) I should repeat again (since it helps to prevent misunderstandings) that I do not believe that homosexuality is a choice (and nothing else). But if, as it appears, it isn’t genetic, then it’s incredibly intractable, i.e. its causes extremely difficult to comprehend. I’m okay with that - but urgently want to understand. One thing I have learned in my 45 years is never to say something I don’t believe. And I won’t break that habit now. I’ve been challenged all my life for holding that homosexuality is a sin. Happened when I was 18 and, as headboy of my school, had the responsibility of introducing Chad Varah, founder of the Samaritans, at a talk he was giving to six formers. During the Q&A, I picked him up on something he had said that suggested he (a priest) did not believe that homosexuality was a sin. When I questioned this, I was in turn challenged by the school chaplain as to what Biblical basis I had for my beliefs. I provided the references. So I know, to an extent, anyway, the pressure of the crucible of public opinion. At the same time, public opinion isn’t that important to me. Understanding is. Incidentally, if I had to say what the most important message of the Bible was, I would unhesitatingly say “do no violence”. Coercion of those with different beliefs (“lifestyes”) is always wrong. Again, **Priam** , thanks for providing this forum. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/46 "2005-01-05T02:50:15Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Top. Or somewhat more strongly, Total Top. Well, or just a guy that doesn’t like anal sex, period, if that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/47 "2005-01-05T02:56:04Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Well, or just a guy that doesn’t like anal sex, period, if that’s the case. Since we’re stuck with the jargon, it’s as well to be up to speed on it. Otherwise, I’ll never be able to communicate with my kid when she grows up. It’s hard enough now, though that might be because she talks a foreign language with her mum most of the time. (Still puzzling over “slash” communities, though…Sounds uncomfortably close to “snuff”.) ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/48 "2005-01-05T03:03:55Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > (Still puzzling over “slash” communities, though…Sounds uncomfortably close to “snuff”.) Thank God no! Slash refers to the section of fanwriting that romantically pairs two characters from a series or a book together for the purpose of the story. It refers to how they’re described. For a quick example, a story pairing Spock and Uhura together from the Star Trek series would be referred to as Spock/Uhura fanfiction. This type of fiction is quite often written in the harlequin romance pseudoporn style predominantly (in my experience) by women. A large subsection of these stories are gay male pairings with some rather unlikely and often disturbing characters. The concept of Harry Potter series slash just leaves me feeling rather creeped out. Still, some if the writers are actually quite good though not really my cup of tea. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/49 "2005-01-05T03:09:42Z")
I guess calling them “forward slash” communities would take away from the hip value of the epithet. Accuracy can be such a drag. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/50 "2005-01-05T03:11:58Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Since we’re stuck with the jargon, it’s as well to be up to speed on it. Otherwise, I’ll never be able to communicate with my kid when she grows up. It’s hard enough now, though that might be because she talks a foreign language with her mum most of the time. There’s a difference between what **Otto** and **matt** are talking about. A Top likes anal; but only as the penetrator not as a receiver. (Conversely a bottom likes to be penetrated but doesn’t like to top.) Someone who likes to do both is “versatile”. **matt** was speaking of someone who doesn’t like anal in any position. BTW, is that a Buffett reference with the different language? > [@](#): > > (Still puzzling over “slash” communities, though…Sounds uncomfortably close to “snuff”.) You can relax about the slash meaning. It refers to the “/” between characters who are involved in the fanfic. Slash fiction is about relationships between characters who aren’t involved in the official stories, often involving straight men. For instance in the Buffyverse there are a lot of stories about hot sex between Spike and Giles, shorthanded as Spike/Giles and even further as Spiles. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/51 "2005-01-05T03:15:54Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > A large subsection of these stories are gay male pairings with some rather unlikely and often disturbing characters. The concept of Harry Potter series slash just leaves me feeling rather creeped out. You weren’t a Doper yet when **Guinastasia** , as part of a response to an earlier question about slashfic, linked to a Draco/Harry story as an example. ::: shudders ::: ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/52 "2005-01-05T03:20:54Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You weren’t a Doper yet when **Guinastasia** , as part of a response to an earlier question about slashfic, linked to a Draco/Harry story as an example. ::: shudders ::: I saw a drawing once about that on another message board. It was disturbing and I would suggest no one ever go looking for it. Ever. Not even for a bet. I mean it. :eek: :eek: :eek: ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/53 "2005-01-05T03:22:00Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > There’s a difference between what **Otto** and **matt** are talking about. A Top likes anal; but only as the penetrator not as a receiver. (Conversely a bottom likes to be penetrated but doesn’t like to top.) Someone who likes to do both is “versatile”. **matt** was speaking of someone who doesn’t like anal in any position. I get it. Actually, my question **Otto** was originally answering was about men who don’t like being penetrated, so I did understand the context. (Gee - I’m not totally anal!) > [@](#): > > BTW, is that a Buffett reference with the different language? No - at least I don’t think so (I don’t know who or what Buffett is). My wife and daughter speak Cantonese together, and my Cantonese is pretty piss poor. (As my daughter keeps reminding me.) > [@](#): > > You can relax about the slash meaning. It refers to the “/” between characters who are involved in the fanfic. Slash fiction is about relationships between characters who aren’t involved in the official stories, often involving straight men. For instance in the Buffyverse there are a lot of stories about hot sex between Spike and Giles, shorthanded as Spike/Giles and even further as Spiles. You know, I’ve never watched Buffy. Am I missing anything? (Ditto with Xena.) ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/54 "2005-01-05T03:44:23Z")
Ok, so I’ve got a question. I’m a MTF transsexual married to a woman. We were married when I was still physically male, but I’ve since transitioned (for more detail click the link in my sig). Before the transition, I was attracted only to women, and that remains true. This makes me a lesbian. That’s the easy part. My wife had never been physically attracted to women, and still isn’t attracted to women in general, but she remains in an active, healthy, long-term sexual relationship with me. If we had met after my transition, we likely would have become close friends, but there’s little to no chance we’d have become lovers. Our sexual relationship because it’s a continuation of what for her began as a heterosexual relationship. So what is the best descriptor for her sexual orientation? Heterosexual best describes her basic attraction, and homosexual her relationship with me. Bisexual seems the closest fit, but not really because it isn’t _women_ she finds sexually stimulating, just me. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/55 "2005-01-05T03:52:25Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > So what is the best descriptor for her sexual orientation? Monogamous. I kid, but only slightly. That’s how I’d describe my sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/56 "2005-01-05T03:54:14Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > My question for the GAy dopers, is what for you is the best thing about being gay? Middle-class gay artist here. And if that’s a stereotype, I have to say that there’s damn little about me that fits that stereotype. I’ve known literally thousands of gay men and lesbians over the years, and probably 99% of us have travelled through personal evolutions that dwarf what most straight people have experienced. We’ve had to question some of the most fundamental assumptions of our society, and we’ve had to overcome obstacles that most straight people couldn’t even imagine. But here we are, and we’re still learning, still evolving, and still overcoming all those same obstacles, and new ones. It always amazes me when someone can cite a specific date and time when he came out. I’ve been coming out over a period of several decades, and the process continues forever. It’s a life-long learning curve, and even more so, an **un** learning curve, as we unlearn all the “truths” that other people so easily absorb. The best thing about being gay? I’ve been singing in a Gay Men’s Chorus for almost 10 years now, and there’s no way to convey the feeling of performing to a wildly-supportive sold-out audience, and feeling that power to change people’s hearts and minds. More than once, during a performance, I’ve felt such exhuberant pride in our accomplishment, and thought what a shame it is that most straight people have no idea what an amazing event this is, and have no parallel in their own lives. And every four years, we participate in a week-long international festival of GLBT choruses, and I have never felt so much love and power and joy and pride. I had an HRC equal-sign bumper sticker on my car; I’ve recently changed it to a “greater-than-or-equal” sign. For this, I’ve been accused of bigotry. So be it. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/57 "2005-01-05T03:58:52Z")
**Number Six** : I’d call your wife heterosexual but immediately rush in with the ever-important caveat that labels are simply for neatness and never quite encapsulate all the craziness life throws at each unique person. If forced to speculate, I’d suppose she fell in love with you when you appeared as a man to her and that initial attraction is still fixed to you even if you are no longer one. I always consider that the initial sexual spark is a better judge for one’s “true” sexual orientation than chemistry that evolves over time, since its based on a fairly blank slate. Once chemistry evolves from that one spark, I’ve found it becomes hard to define someone as generally homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual and more, say, **NumberSix** sexual. Attracted to you regardless of whether you gain weight or a new hairstyle or a different set of sexual characteristics. That made sense in my head. Does it make sense on the page? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/58 "2005-01-05T04:01:31Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > We have at least one doper who is a gay man and has no designs on anal sex. Well, for the record, allow me to up that count to “at least two.” ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/59 "2005-01-05T04:03:50Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > So I know, to an extent, anyway, the pressure of the crucible of public opinion. At the same time, public opinion isn’t that important to me. Understanding is. I didn’t think you had any hidden agenda going on there, **roger** , and I apologize if it sounded like I did (because I know I’ve accused you of such in the past). I was just trying to point out basically what **Priam** said – anecdotal evidence is likely to be as good as you’ll ever get on this topic. I agree with what you said about public opinion, though. The question of what causes homosexuality doesn’t interest me at all, because absolutely nothing in my life would change if I found out the answer. Personally, I don’t really care what other gay people do\* or how they developed; I only have control over what I do. \*except in very limited and specific cases, where they’ve done it on film and I’m in the mood to watch. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/60 "2005-01-05T04:08:21Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’ve known literally thousands of gay men and lesbians over the years, and probably 99% of us have travelled through personal evolutions that dwarf what most straight people have experienced. We’ve had to question some of the most fundamental assumptions of our society, and we’ve had to overcome obstacles that most straight people couldn’t even imagine. But here we are, and we’re still learning, still evolving, and still overcoming all those same obstacles, and new ones. I note the use of ‘most’ (twice). It’s key. Also, the positivist tone of your last sentence disturbs me. Too eutopic by half. “Call some place paradise - kiss it goodbye.” > [@](#): > > It’s a life-long learning curve, and even more so, an **un** learning curve, as we unlearn all the “truths” that other people so easily absorb. I like the concept of ‘unask’ - which challenges us to ponder whether we’ve been asking the right questions. From my knowledge of gays, I have to say that when put to the test they’re very little different from “other people”. I actually see them as very little different from straight people, which, ironically enough, seems to upset people at their core. > [@](#): > > I had an HRC equal-sign bumper sticker on my car; I’ve recently changed it to a “greater-than-or-equal” sign. For this, I’ve been accused of bigotry. So be it. Confirms one of the most deelpy held prejudices I have - the prejudice against the word ‘bigot’. I hate it with an irrational passion for leading to the abolition of thinking! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906.md?page=4)