# The Queer Soup Thread (An attempt to merge some of the queer threads together) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 3, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906 "2005-01-03T22:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/61 "2005-01-05T04:09:25Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > **Number Six** : > > I’d call your wife heterosexual but immediately rush in with the ever-important caveat that labels are simply for neatness and never quite encapsulate all the craziness life throws at each unique person. If forced to speculate, I’d suppose she fell in love with you when you appeared as a man to her and that initial attraction is still fixed to you even if you are no longer one. I always consider that the initial sexual spark is a better judge for one’s “true” sexual orientation than chemistry that evolves over time, since its based on a fairly blank slate. Once chemistry evolves from that one spark, I’ve found it becomes hard to define someone as generally homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual and more, say, **NumberSix** sexual. Attracted to you regardless of whether you gain weight or a new hairstyle or a different set of sexual characteristics. > > That made sense in my head. Does it make sense on the page? It sure does, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/62 "2005-01-05T04:16:44Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > I didn’t think you had any hidden agenda going on there, **roger** , and I apologize if it sounded like I did (because I know I’ve accused you of such in the past). I was just trying to point out basically what **Priam** said – anecdotal evidence is likely to be as good as you’ll ever get on this topic. Rest assured, I never felt you were accusing me of hidden agendas, or anything else. The past is the past. I think we’re all agreed on the value of anecdotal evidence, even if we might interpret it differently. > [@](#): > > I agree with what you said about public opinion, though. It’s very healthy - though sometimes quite mortifying (when you don’t perform well) - to have to stand up for your views in public, especially in writing. > [@](#): > > The question of what causes homosexuality doesn’t interest me at all, because absolutely nothing in my life would change if I found out the answer. Personally, I don’t really care what other gay people do or how they developed; I only have control over what I do. Understood. For me, it’s less of an academic (or, hopefully, prurient) interest, and more of a “healthy obsession”. What I mean by that is that I have as long as I can remember wanted to understand male homosexuality. (I merely fantasise about the female kind!) My wife’s convinced I’m a closet gay!! ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/63 "2005-01-05T05:29:28Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Any suggestion (one might say evidence, but I eschew that word as so much of the studies in the social sciences are crap) that a lesbian orientation is more reversible than a male homosexual’s? (I’m not referring to bisexuality.) No, but there is some suggestion that (as already mentioned) women’s sexuality is more fluid than men’s…or possibly that women have a harder time understanding their own sexuality, or are under greater social pressure to enter into heterosexual relationships. It’s a complicated topic on which there is little reliable data. Anedotally, it seems that most gay men are to some extent “out” by their early 20s, and if they aren’t it’s because they’re consciously choosing to hide their orientation. On the other hand, it’s not unusual for a lesbian to come out in her 30s or beyond. Many of these women say that they weren’t so much in the closet as simply clueless. At the same time, the “lesbian until graduation” phenomenon has been widely observed on college campuses without any similarly visible male counterpart. The reasons for this are anyone’s guess. Heck, it’s not even clear what is really going on – there aren’t hard numbers on these things. I’ll float one hypothesis, though. A bisexual woman who is personally inclined towards monogamy may seem, to both herself and outsiders, to flip-flop between “straight” and “gay”. > [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > It is quite common for heterosexual men o fantasize about (often very unrealistic) lesbian sex and lesbian sexuality. Is it at all common for heterosexual women to fantasize about homosexual male sex and sexuality? As best as I can tell, it’s fairly common. The thriving online “slash” community has already been discussed, and most of that involves male/male stories written by and for straight women. I attended a women’s college, and many of my straight friends there were really into reading slash stories online. And there was a DVD of **Velvet Goldmine** that got passed around in the dorm an awful lot. > [@](#): > > _Do homosexuals of either sex fantasize about sex with heterosexuals of the same sex, and do you fantasize about being your own sex with a same sex heterosexual or being of the opposite sex with a heterosexual of your same (actual) sex._ I’m sure people fantasize about all kinds of things, but I’m not sure I follow your question. Is the first part asking if homosexuals ever fantasize about attractive same-sex people who are straight in real life? Of course, although in the fantasy they’d almost always prove to be gay! I mean, it would be a pretty lousy fantasy for a gay man if Brad Pitt said “Sorry buddy, I don’t swing that way” and went home to Jennifer. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/64 "2005-01-05T05:37:25Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m sure people fantasize about all kinds of things, but I’m not sure I follow your question. Is the first part asking if homosexuals ever fantasize about attractive same-sex people who are straight in real life? Of course, although in the fantasy they’d almost always prove to be gay! I mean, it would be a pretty lousy fantasy for a gay man if Brad Pitt said “Sorry buddy, I don’t swing that way” and went home to Jennifer. I follow the question, so if I may be so bold as to rephrase it: Do homosexuals fantasize about sex with heterosexuals AND, if so, in those fantasies do they fantasize about that sex being between two people of the same sex, or do they take the role of the"opposite" sex. In other words, if you’re a gay guy fantasizing about Brad Pitt, are you female in the fantasy? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/65 "2005-01-05T06:09:58Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Well, for the record, allow me to up that count to “at least two.” Uhhhhhh… two and three-quarters. > [@](#): > > In other words, if you’re a gay guy fantasizing about Brad Pitt, are you female in the fantasy? No. At least, I’m certainly not, and I think the same is true of nearly all gay guys, from what I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/66 "2005-01-05T07:11:36Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I mean, it would be a pretty lousy fantasy for a gay man if Brad Pitt said “Sorry buddy, I don’t swing that way” and went home to Jennifer. 😃 That is classic. Most self-loathing gay fantasy ever – “Sorry, dude, let’s just be friends.” From what I’ve seen and heard (you know, from _friends_ who actually lower themselves to look at porn and such things), the whole “first time for a straight guy” is a common theme, but the idea is that the gay guy in question is so incredibly hot that the straight guy is overwhelmed with curiosity and just can’t help but have gay sex. > [@LifeOnWry (paraphrasing)](#): > > Do homosexuals fantasize about sex with heterosexuals There are plenty of straight guys I think are hot, but the idea of actually doing it with someone “against his orientation” is pretty skeevy to me. So my fantasy (assuming that I ever did indulge in such things) _would_ be about a gay or bi man who just happens to look an awful lot like person X. > [@LifeOnWry](#): > > In other words, if you’re a gay guy fantasizing about Brad Pitt, are you female in the fantasy? To each his own, of course, but for me: definitely not. No doubt this is going to get me called misogynistic, but throwing a woman into the mix would be a real cold shower for me. It reminds me of the whole “are you a top or a bottom?” question (which I think is incredibly rude and personal anyway). The worst way I’ve ever seen it worded was “When you have sex, which one of you is the woman?” Well neither, obviously. That’s pretty much the whole _point_. So when straight guys fantasize about lesbian sex, do they see themselves as one of the women? I always assumed that they fantasized themselves as a voyeur or as a third participant. And another question I get to ask the gay guys about: Do gay guys generally find Brad Pitt to be attractive? Not that there’s anything _wrong_ with that, but… eh. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/67 "2005-01-05T07:30:17Z")
[QUOTE=SolGrundyThe worst way I’ve ever seen it worded was “When you have sex, which one of you is the woman?” Well neither, obviously. That’s pretty much the whole _point_. [/QUOTE] From a lesbian friend of mine: “If I wanted a _man_, I could get one. I could get several if I let them think they could watch.” ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/68 "2005-01-05T07:32:28Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > From a lesbian friend of mine: “If I wanted a _man_, I could get one. I could get several if I let them think they could watch.” So long as they don’t look at the camera. Complete turn off. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/69 "2005-01-05T15:42:21Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > This is a question about/for transexual/gendered people that are either post-op, or living full time as the opposite gender. Like others, I’m not positive on the terms, so if something comes out wrong, it’s not intentional. How do you look at with your awards that have your non-preferred name, or pictures of you looking like the wrong sex/gender? I ask this because I once saw a documentary on this subject where a soon to be post-op woman referred to the man in the pictures as her evil twin. She would also say things like “these are Bill’s medals” or Bill did this or that. Is it common for people to look at their pre-op and post-op selves as two separate people? Yes, it’s quite common, especially in those who transition later in life. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/70 "2005-01-05T16:18:44Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > In other words, if you’re a gay guy fantasizing about Brad Pitt, are you female in the fantasy? Nope. I guess if I were to fantasize about Brad Pitt, which I normally don’t, then I’d just tacitly assume he was bi or something. Of course I generally don’t fantasize about specific people anyway. > [@](#): > > And another question I get to ask the gay guys about\_: Do gay guys generally find Brad Pitt to be attractive? Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but… eh. Wouldn’t kick him out of bed for eating crackers. Not my favorite celeb type, though. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/71 "2005-01-05T16:35:49Z")
New question time! While I realize there is no one-size-fits-all General Policy, what’s the feeling about “fag hags” (and I just hate that term, so I use “fairy godmother”)? I do not actively seek gay men to hang out with, but I do seem to end up fairly regularly in their company. As a teenager, a large proportion of the guys I dated later came out, so I’ve ALWAYS had this. To this day I joke that if there’s a gay man in the room, he will find me and make friends - I’m some kind of magnet! It’s not just guys, either; lesbians seem to like me just fine too. So - am I putting out a distinctly gay-friendly vibe, or did I inadvertantly perform the Secret Handshake or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/72 "2005-01-05T18:30:42Z")
To make my fantasies question more simple I’ll start a new IMHO poll about fantasies and sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![chaoticbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/73 "2005-01-05T19:14:56Z")
No, if I’m fantasizing about sex with a straight man, I’m also a guy. Re: the “First time” videos: Those are the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. None of those would ever work. Like something I was watching once, where 2 “football players” pin up a 3rd, while a 4th harassed him for sex. He refused, until the 4th player kissed him. He immediately said something like “Oh, yeah. I’ll do anything you want.” Turn-off. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/74 "2005-01-05T20:42:24Z")
One other factor about why gay people seem to be disproportionatly middle class. Gay guys and straight guys are likely to settle into stable, long-term relationships at about the same age. Except, when a straight guy does this, it usually involves having one or more children, which is a huge drain on the finanaces, especially if his wife/girlfriend goes the stay-at-home-mom route and stops bringing in a second income. Gay couples, on the other hand… not so much. Gay sex columnist (and parent) Dan Savage refers to such couples as DINKs: double income, no kids. For those couples, it’s that much easier to maintain a middle-class lifestyle than it would be for an equivalent couple trying to raise a kid. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > So long as they don’t look at the camera. Complete turn off. Man, I _hate_ that. My own datum on the subject of porn: I’m a bisexual man, and I get off almost exclusively to lesbian porn, and only occasionally to gay male porn. Maybe 80/20\*. Never, and I mean _never_, to heterosexual porn. Don’t know why not, as I certainly enjoy having heterosexual sex, but there’s just something terribly boring about watching straight people fuck. \*At least, that was when I was single. Since I got a boyfriend, it’s pretty much exactly the opposite. Of course, that’s because I’m usually fantasizing _about_ my boyfriend… ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/75 "2005-01-05T22:46:10Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > I do not actively seek gay men to hang out with, but I do seem to end up fairly regularly in their company. As a teenager, a large proportion of the guys I dated later came out, so I’ve ALWAYS had this. To this day I joke that if there’s a gay man in the room, he will find me and make friends - I’m some kind of magnet! It’s not just guys, either; lesbians seem to like me just fine too. So - am I putting out a distinctly gay-friendly vibe, or did I inadvertantly perform the Secret Handshake or something? Well, my experience in the whole “out and proud” thing is very, very limited, but I’d guess it’s the former. Or rather, putting out a “gay-friendly vibe” _is_ the Secret Handshake. People just tend to pick up on someone’s attitude towards them; I’m less inclined to get chummy with someone if I get the sense he or she is going to judge me or be uncomfortable around me. You attract the gays because you don’t give the impression that you don’t like the gays. (I would explain the _real_ gay Secret Handshake to you, but it’s kind of detailed and may be too much information for this thread.) And I’d guess that the kind of things you find attractive in another person – either as friends or romantically – happen to be the stereotypical gay traits I have seen more than a couple self-described “fag hags” who call themselves that because they’re somewhat bitter. They’ve dated or been attracted to guys who turn out to be gay, over and over again, and have the attitude of either “why are all the good men gay?” or “what is wrong with me that I keep getting attracted to homos?” I don’t really know what to say to them, because I can’t relate, obviously. > [@Miller](#): > > Since I got a boyfriend, it’s pretty much exactly the opposite. Of course, that’s because I’m usually fantasizing about my boyfriend… Same here. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/76 "2005-01-06T01:12:05Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > To this day I joke that if there’s a gay man in the room, he will find me and make friends - I’m some kind of magnet! It’s not just guys, either; lesbians seem to like me just fine too. So - am I putting out a distinctly gay-friendly vibe, or did I inadvertantly perform the Secret Handshake or something? Speaking only for myself and those I know, it often comes down to attitude. I’m generally looking for somebody with a certain strength and poise, the ability to keep up with my sarcasm yet still care. I have a very loooow tolerance for the giggly, simpering types since looks are (quite obviously) not a major driving factor. Dunno whether thats a good stab at your question or not… ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/77 "2005-01-06T01:45:46Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > Speaking only for myself and those I know, it often comes down to attitude. I’m generally looking for somebody with a certain strength and poise, the ability to keep up with my sarcasm yet still care. I have a very loooow tolerance for the giggly, simpering types since looks are (quite obviously) not a major driving factor. > > Dunno whether thats a good stab at your question or not… Certainly works as an ego stroke, though! 😃 I don’t get the bitter thing - well, maybe I do, but although I’ve been attracted to guys who end up being gay, I’ve also been attracted to women who end up being straight. Equal opportunity rejection probably gives me a more objective take on things. I would think that the “fag hags” who are bitter about it may be so because they’re not attracting straight guys either? And maybe gay men, because they’re not interested in scoring with these women, don’t give off an immediate “I see no future with you” vibe, and that is misinterpreted as interest? ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/78 "2005-01-06T04:09:01Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > Certainly works as an ego stroke, though! 😃 I live to serve, madam 😃 > [@](#): > > I don’t get the bitter thing - well, maybe I do, but although I’ve been attracted to guys who end up being gay, I’ve also been attracted to women who end up being straight. Equal opportunity rejection probably gives me a more objective take on things. I would think that the “fag hags” who are bitter about it may be so because they’re not attracting straight guys either? And maybe gay men, because they’re not interested in scoring with these women, don’t give off an immediate “I see no future with you” vibe, and that is misinterpreted as interest? I would suppose you’re right in that its more generalized bitterness. They aren’t attracting any guys but with straight men they’re never quite certain. Enter Gay Guy and suddenly they have a sharp focus for that sort of pent up frustration and maybe even a certain amount of cop-out in some situation. “Oh I’m not attracting guys because the ones I like are all _gay_. It couldn’t be because I’m overbearing, neurotic she-bitch to anyone I have any romantic interest in at all!” Speculation on my part! In my experience, though, I’ve not found many fairy princesses of that style. Of course most of mine are lesbians or bisexual, so I wouldn’t claim a representative sample 😉 . I love them all to bits, though! ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/79 "2005-01-06T07:30:26Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > I would think that the “fag hags” who are bitter about it may be so because they’re not attracting straight guys either? My fag hags skip this step since they tend to be lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906/80 "2005-01-06T07:45:22Z")
Was Carrie Bradshaw’s basic problem that she was a closet fag hag? I mean, her taste in men went off the radar, from hunks like Big and Aidan to wimps like Berger and the old Russian. (Never did catch his name - his faux culture was too irritating.) And she had a soft spot for Stanford. Didn’t we all, though? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-queer-soup-thread-an-attempt-to-merge-some-of-the-queer-threads-together/282906.md?page=5)