# the question of 'strong' people vs. 'weak' people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2002, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901 "2002-03-30T08:38:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/1 "2002-03-30T08:38:26Z")
hello all. in [a certain]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=103359&perpage=50&highlight=nauseous](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=103359&perpage=50&highlight=nauseous) exercise&pagenumber=1) thread, **biggirl** had this to say: > [@](#): > > If a person who is within their size range can eat a hamburger when they choose and not get fat, they believe that a fat person must be eating twice as many hamburgers. this is too true, and i don’t mean just in terms of overeating. i deal with it often as a depressive. and as a college dropout. and i see it in discussions about poverty (“Hell, i came from a rotten neighborhood, and i run a multistate business now!”), and drug abuse (infer from last parenthetical), and smoking, and class issues. and cetera. to me, it’s like saying, “Well sheeut, i got the polio when i was little, and i turned out fine! Screw those vaccination-needing leeches.” my great debate is not whether this is right (i believe it is not), or from what part of the psyche it comes, but rather how to deal with it. can it be dealt with? or (to put it better), can one _only_ deal with it, i.e. accept it as an ineradicable part of human interaction and move on from there? jb ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/2 "2002-03-30T08:52:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jb\_farley \* > \*\*hello all.my great debate is not whether this is right (i believe it is not), or from what part of the psyche it comes, but rather how to deal with it. > > can it be dealt with? or (to put it better), can one _only_ deal with it, i.e. accept it as an ineradicable part of human interaction and move on from there? > > jb \*\* I’m a bit confused by the _it_, which needs dealing with. Is it the rationalization that helps maintain unhealthy life styles? Or, something related? Are you asking about dealing with it in oneself or in relationship with others? Or, am I missing your point altogether, **jb**? ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/3 "2002-03-30T11:36:03Z")
no, you’re totally on the right track. i think **it** ’s something that everybody does. we identify our own strengths, and can’t help (or so it seems) but psychically diss (however subtly) those who don’t possess them\*. like i said, i’ve faced this psychic diss from others, but still find myself, shall we say, psychically dissing others. i’m sure i’m not the only one who has felt this paradox. so, can this be worked through, or is it a fundamental part of us? jb \*i’m not saying we do this with _all_ of our strengths, mind you ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/4 "2002-03-30T13:24:34Z")
You’ve really hit on something there, **jb\_farley**. What you’re describing is an important part of the attitude of conservatism. Take it to its ultimate logical conclusion, you get the jungle survival of the fittest, only the strong _deserve_ to survive. Everyone else can go to hell. This has been called “Social Darwinism.” ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/5 "2002-03-30T15:13:17Z")
The problem with this interpretation of Darwinism is that it relies on a very narrow definition of ‘strong’ as being might or power and it underlay some extrtemely nasty philosphies which saw their height of popularity in certain dictatorships. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/6 "2002-03-30T16:07:55Z")
According to Darwinism, “strong” is whatever traits help a species survive their environment (and thus propagate the species) at any given time. The same traits that may be beneficial at one point in time (ie a T-Rex’s size) may be a detriment at some other point in time (ie the T-Rex after a meteorstrike has blocked out the sun). The same holds true in society. In our society, looks, intelligence and agressiveness are traits that help people succed, both financially and socially. If you are lacking in the skills that are needed to get ahead at a particular time, you soon find people passing you by in life. In the real world, it is survival of the fittest. If I don’t perform at my job, I’m out. If my girlfriend finds a better looking guy with a 12 inch johnson(fortunately I don’t have to worry about that :)), I’ts back to the 5-knuckle shuffle. The reason people like me feel that “everyone else can go to hell” is that to some extent it is a zero-sum game. If you get that promotion, that means I have to wait. If my girlfriend is with me, she isn’t with you. And so on. So for you to get ahead, it is necessary for me to give up some of what I feel I’ve worked hard to achieve. Basically, a person like that is asking me to give without offering anything in return. I suppose that’s the diference between “strong” and “weak” people (for lack of a better term). Strong people find a way to meet their goals. Weak people lack the skills or desire to get where they want to be. A weak person whines about how they were never given the opportunities or how other people are keeping them down. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/7 "2002-03-30T16:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > I suppose that’s the diference between “strong” and “weak” people (for lack of a better term). Strong people find a way to meet their goals. Weak people lack the skills or desire to get where they want to be. A weak person whines about how they were never given the opportunities or how other people are keeping them down. \*\* If I made a speech like that at work I would be dead before lunch, victim of a tragic forklift accident. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/8 "2002-03-30T16:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > I suppose that’s the diference between “strong” and “weak” people (for lack of a better term). Strong people find a way to meet their goals. Weak people lack the skills or desire to get where they want to be. A weak person whines about how they were never given the opportunities or how other people are keeping them down. Such a simple description papers over many ugly facts. The truth of the matter is there is never an equality in opportunity in Capitalism as many of its defenders asserted. Such is a mere illusion. By this definition, many criminals are “strong.” So why are we locking them up? We must be envious of their successes! ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/9 "2002-03-30T20:29:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*According to Darwinism, “strong” is whatever traits help a species survive their environment (and thus propagate the species) at any given time… In the real world, it is survival of the fittest… The reason people like me feel that “everyone else can go to hell” is that to some extent it is a zero-sum game… So for you to get ahead, it is necessary for me to give up some of what I feel I’ve worked hard to achieve. \*\* but darwinism is as much about cooperation and symbiosis, as it is about domination and ‘savagery’. plus, darwinian evolution of species is a much different animal than social darwinism. > [@](#): > > \*\*I suppose that’s the diference between “strong” and “weak” people (for lack of a better term). Strong people find a way to meet their goals. Weak people lack the skills or desire to get where they want to be. A weak person whines about how they were never given the opportunities or how other people are keeping them down. \*\* this here is what i’m talking about with the psychic diss. it’s one thing to analyze social interactions, and class people into ‘fitter’ and ‘less fit’ (or ‘strong’ and ‘weak’). but quite another to take those two groups and say one’s better than the other. if someone is ‘weak’, it simply means that they’re less fit for their situation. nothing more. for instance, with depression, i am (at times, thankfully not right now) decidedly unfit for the real world. i have great difficulty functioning in my environment. but that says nothing about my moral fiber, or my strength of will, or anything. you dig? jb ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-question-of-strong-people-vs-weak-people/100901/10 "2002-03-30T20:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > Such a simple description papers over many ugly facts. The truth of the matter is there is never an equality in opportunity in Capitalism as many of its defenders asserted. Such is a mere illusion. Never said there was. The equality of capitalism is that (theoretically) you aren’t prevented from achieving your goals because of race, religeon or other. I say theoretically because the fact of the matter is that people are afforded certain advantages based on where they were born or who their parents were (ie its a lot easier to start a business from scratch if you can borrow $20000 from your rich dad). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > By this definition, many criminals are “strong.” So why are we locking them up? We must be envious of their successes! \*\* Well, yes. If a 300 lb man in a ski mask has a gun to your head, you tell me who is dealing from a position of strength. The reason we lock them up (or have laws at all for that matter) is that people have collectively agreed that it is better for society as a whole to prevent the strong from subjugating the weak.