# The Race Card and the Racist Card **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305 "2011-01-20T07:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/61 "2011-01-21T17:12:05Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I find the perception the black people will beat you up just for calling them a name to be highly insulting. It’s exploiting the stereotype of the “angry, brutish negro.” True, but it is embedded enough that it showed up in Die Hard 3. Remember, that’s how they got Samuel L. Jackson involved? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/62 "2011-01-21T17:19:42Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Not sure I’m understanding what you’re saying here. Could you develop? There’s nothing to develop – in my view it is very self-evident, with extremely pointed details on the dynamics of political interference at the highest levels. I would strongly suggest reading the article I posted. There are just too many tidbits to extract here but the best would be how this guy was able to pay himself into Brookings Institute. Major point is that dual loyalty is misnomer - for some, there is in fact only one loyalty. And this article shows how it is done and how it works. It is up to you to decide if such dynamic is okay in an allegedly democratic society. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/63 "2011-01-21T17:32:38Z")
No, developing your claims would be a good thing. Self evident as they may be. And what _exactly_ would you propose we do in this supposedly democratic society, and who exactly should be targeted? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/64 "2011-01-21T17:39:52Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > There’s nothing to develop – in my view it is very self-evident, with extremely pointed details on the dynamics of political interference at the highest levels. I would strongly suggest reading the article I posted. > > There are just too many tidbits to extract here but the best would be how this guy was able to pay himself into Brookings Institute. > > Major point is that dual loyalty is misnomer - for some, there is in fact only one loyalty. And this article shows how it is done and how it works. It is up to you to decide if such dynamic is okay in an allegedly democratic society. I read the article. I dont know wtf you mean with dual loyalty, but conflict of interest isnt a special brand applied to Jews. It is all-encompassing and something that democratic societies consider now necessary. Now, going from that to all rich and powerful Jews have some veil of suspicion on them that they are required to disprove is nonsense. That’s one of the thing that pisses me off with people carelessly calling others racists or antisemites whenever they get rebuked or feel like it. In the case of antisemitism, it didnt suppress it, it just smashed the wall between antisionism and antisemitism. And that’s one of the reasons threads on Israel, on the net, always end up with only the loonies satying around. And I mean the loonies of both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/65 "2011-01-21T18:07:07Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > We are discussing the article that using veiled analogies, and some quite direct, implies only one conclusion. The key passages are as follows: \* > > No, when he (Andrew) piously implies that the orbit of The New Republic is immune, or hostile, to the eternal verities of Christianity, he is baiting another class of people, and operating in the vicinity of a different canard. > … > That is his criterion for dividing the American Jewish community into good Jews and bad Jews–a practice with a sordid history. > … > Sullivan is hunting for motives, not reasons; for conspiracies, which is the surest sign of a mind’s bankruptcy. > … > And this is not all that is disgusting about Sullivan’s approach. His assumption, in his outburst about “the Goldfarb-Krauthammer wing,” that every thought that a Jew thinks is a Jewish thought is an anti-Semitic assumption, and a rather classical one.\* > > The last one is the most direct and IT IS accusation of anti-Semitism (i.e. there is no other more certain interpretation of it). No, it’s not. Wieseltier is merely saying that the belief that “every thought that a Jew thinks is a Jewish thought” is anti-Semitic. Are you saying that it’s wrong to claim that such a statement is anti-Semitic? Furthermore, it’s very possible for people to hold bigoted beliefs or make bigoted statements without themselves being bigots, but merely being insensitive. Sully himself has said this on numerous times to explain why he doesn’t feel certain people should be classified as bigots despite making homophobic or racist comments. > [@](#): > > It is incredible how someone like you can What do you mean by the phrase “someone like you”? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/66 "2011-01-21T18:41:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, it’s not. Strength of this argument is beyond my capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/67 "2011-01-21T18:53:32Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Strength of this argument is beyond my capabilities. I understand. It’s hard to argue with the facts. Anyway, what did you mean by the phrase “someone like you”? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/68 "2011-01-21T19:02:17Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I read the article. I dont know wtf you mean with dual loyalty, but conflict of interest isnt a special brand applied to Jews. It is all-encompassing and something that democratic societies consider now necessary. Now, going from that to all rich and powerful Jews have some veil of suspicion on them that they are required to disprove is nonsense. > That’s one of the thing that pisses me off with people carelessly calling others racists or antisemites whenever they get rebuked or feel like it. In the case of antisemitism, it didnt suppress it, it just smashed the wall between antisionism and antisemitism. > And that’s one of the reasons threads on Israel, on the net, always end up with only the loonies satying around. > And I mean the loonies of both sides. So, it appears that you are okay with having a high-ranking elected or Senate confirmed official in US Government who looks after foreign country interests first. According to you, it happens all the time with people from various ethnic origins at all levels of US Government that maintain their country of origin interests ahead of those of US when dealing on behalf of US with said country. Furthermore, it is a necessity of a modern democracy (it would be great to see reasoning behind this). Incredulous, but fine. But, it would be fantastic to see people who engage in such activities declare that they intend to put US interests second when they are up for election or Senate confirmation. Something tells me if they declared their intentions they would never get elected or confirmed by Senate so, they are not disclosing that. Which means a fraud is committed. And you are okay with that. Fantastic! ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/69 "2011-01-21T19:05:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I understand. It’s hard to argue with the facts. It has nothing to do with facts but with understanding and certainty of an interpretation for a given text. If it was about facts there would be no need to discuss. You calling your own interpretation “a fact” is incredibly dishonest and really not worthy of GD. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/70 "2011-01-21T19:48:28Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > It has nothing to do with facts but with understanding and certainty of an interpretation for a given text. If it was about facts there would be no need to discuss. You calling your own interpretation “a fact” is incredibly dishonest and really not worthy of GD. You are certainly welcome to that point of view if you want. Most people would think that if you’re going to claim Leon Wieseltier of “accusing” Andrew Sullivan of anti-Semitism you could show him doing that, which, you haven’t and you can’t. Anyway that’s an issue we’ll have to agree to disagree on. What I would like to know and have asked you politely twice for an answer to and am asking for a third time now is what did you mean by directing the phrase “someone like you” at me? Would you mind explaining what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/71 "2011-01-21T20:02:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Would you mind explaining what you meant? Meaningless and with no specific purpose. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/72 "2011-01-21T20:07:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, developing your claims would be a good thing. Self evident as they may be. > > And what _exactly_ would you propose we do in this supposedly democratic society, and who exactly should be targeted? You offered up something. It’s rather odd to refuse to even discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/73 "2011-01-21T20:28:23Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Meaningless and with no specific purpose. Well, it seemed like it was intended as an insult and people don’t just say “people like you” for no apparent reason. So, what did you mean by it? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/74 "2011-01-21T20:30:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, it seemed like it was intended as an insult and people don’t just say “people like you” for no apparent reason. > > So, what did you mean by it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/75 "2011-01-21T20:32:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You offered up something. It’s rather odd to refuse to even discuss it. So? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/76 "2011-01-21T20:33:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You offered up something. It’s rather odd to refuse to even discuss it. See my response to Captain Zombie [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13380904&postcount=68](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13380904&postcount=68) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/77 "2011-01-21T20:38:55Z")
Yet again, what is your specific point in citing that specific article and what _exactly_ do you propose be done about it in our ‘supposed democracy’? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/78 "2011-01-21T20:41:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yet again, what is your specific point in citing that specific article and what _exactly_ do you propose be done about it in our ‘supposed democracy’? Transparency and full disclosure. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/79 "2011-01-21T20:47:05Z")
This is like pulling teeth. What specific charges are you laying, at whose feet, with what evidence, how does this relate go anybody but the guy in the article, and how is this transparency and full disclosure to be compelled and verified? And how does any if that have to do with whether America is a democratic nation or not? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305/80 "2011-01-21T20:52:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is like pulling teeth. What specific charges are you laying, at whose feet, with what evidence, how does this relate go anybody but the guy in the article, and how is this transparency and full disclosure to be compelled and verified? And how does any if that have to do with whether America is a democratic nation or not? Let us see if we can define and agree, in conceptual terms, on the issue. Do you think that there are cases where political representation in US Government has been abused and fraud committed where an individual acting as an official of US Government worked either against US interests or put US interests as secondary without disclosing his or her intent? And, if agreed do you think it is something that should be criminally prosecuted? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-race-card-and-the-racist-card/568305.md?page=5)