# The Racist is back to defend himself...

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [April 7, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329 "2002-04-07T16:58:24Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![Skemper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Skemper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skemper)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/101 "2002-04-09T01:51:57Z")

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You pose a good question. Why is Jesus not mentioned in the Decalration? Well, for one reason, Jefferson did not believe in the Deity of Christ. Also, the founding fathers, Christian or not (not all were Christians but most), were influenced by Deism and the wording of the Declaration reflected it . So I have to say that the word of Jesus is lacking. But can we find evidence of God in the Declaration? I say yes. Certainly, if one is searching for an explicit creedal confession of the lordship of Jesus Christ, the Declaration is woefully lacking. Too, the effects of the Enlightenment and of deistic notions give the accent of the day in the wording of our founding charter. However, the acknowledgment of the transcendent Creator-God granting certain unalienable rights and the reliance upon Divine Providence are themes which cannot be ignored. So too, the definition of these rights, “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness,” are concepts older than the Enlightenment and owe their genesis to Christian Orthodoxy as defined by the first four Ecumenical Creeds of the church. Also, the sway of Protestantism regarding the doctrine of the lesser civil magistrate and interposition is a clearly evidenced apologetic throughout the document.  
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.  
As depicted in the First Article, God’s transcendent nature is conclusively rendered. Meaning that God is the sovereign Creator who established all things visible and invisible, and who is distinct and apart from His creation (Gen. 1:1, Col. 1:16,17). Hence, the God who created you is the Lord and giver of life. It is He who sustains your body, your soul, your senses, and your reasoning faculties. It is God who provides your sustenance, your house and home, your family and property. It is God who nurtures you and protects you from all evil. He does all of these things expressly for His divine pleasure and purpose.

The concepts of liberty and freedom derived from the first article or the notion of the transcendent Creator- God are as follows:  
The right to life is a liberty granted by God. It is God alone who gives life. Any unlawful taking of life is murder. Therefore, if state sanctioned, state-sponsored murder in the form of abortion is codified, you have a denial of God’s transcendence and tyranny to the unborn. Yet, this abomination is done under the aegis of a kind of “liberty” whose rhetoric is “pro-choice.” This so-called “liberty” is humanistic and God-denying, and thus ends in the persecution and the death of the unborn. Beyond the immediacy of the horrid deed itself, such tyranny leads to the destruction of whole generations, and thus a culture of death is perpetuated until that nation or culture is annihilated. Therefore, unless liberty under God is recognized, tyranny and death are the results not only for the unborn, but, eventually, for the elderly, the sick, the infirmed, and finally society as a whole.

Another principle of liberty derived from the first article is that provision, and thus personal property comes from God and God alone. The same God that created the earth gave man dominion over it. Genesis 1:26-28 depicts man possessing, ruling, and reordering the earth. Also, throughout God’s law, the possession of land is a mark of God’s blessing and provision. Therefore, your family, your home, your property, is a freedom and blessing that comes from God and not from the state!

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**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/102 "2002-04-09T01:53:36Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Skemper_  
> Also, just because someone calls himself a Christian does not make him one.

This is the first thing you’ve said that is demonstrably true. As you, yourself, continue to demonstrate.

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**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/103 "2002-04-09T02:02:02Z")

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Hey! Where’s that cite on the Kentucky court and Washington’s Inaugural Address, **Skemper**?

Just because you’re a racist scumbag doesn’t mean you get to avoid backing up your claims.

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**Author:** ![Skemper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Skemper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skemper)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/104 "2002-04-09T02:10:01Z")

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Waverly,

I am disappointed. I thought that you were one of the smarter people here but when I see you use the F word, it shows that you have a polluted mind and heart. Well, there is no “Wall of separation of church and state”. That phrase is not found anywhere in our founding documents. When signing the Declaration of Independence, Samuel Adams, the father of the Revolution declared; “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun – let His Kingdom come.” James Madison, the father of the Constitution said, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it…but upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God.”  
I know that Jefferson was not a true Christian, He did not believe in the Deity of Christ!

The use of profanity only weakens your points.

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/105 "2002-04-09T02:17:20Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Skemper \*  
> \*\*Waverly,  
> The use of profanity only weakens your points. \*\*

To say that you believe that blacks are mentally inferior to other races weakens your whole argument that you are a “Christian”.  
As far as bad language, try this essay:

[FUCK - or Must Christians Adopt Bourgeois Values?](http://www.bway.net/~halsall/radcath/rad-bourglang.txt)

You and Lydia (and I REFUSE to call her “Lady” when she is anything but) have cited Chesterton many times.

:rolleyes:

Indeed.

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**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/106 "2002-04-09T02:24:08Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Skemper \*  
> The right to life is a liberty granted by God. It is God alone who gives life. Any unlawful taking of life is murder. Therefore, if state sanctioned, state-sponsored murder in the form of abortion is codified, you have a denial of God’s transcendence and tyranny to the unborn. Yet, this abomination is done under the aegis of a kind of “liberty” whose rhetoric is “pro-choice.”

You are allowed your beliefs on the abortion debate, but I wouldn’t lean to heavily on the bible. Seems to be recurring problem with you. At the risk of offending some of the more devout Christian member here, allow me provide a cite from your own Good Book™.

> [@](#):
>
> _Numbers 5:11_:  
> The Test for an Unfaithful Wife  
> 11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and **if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure-or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure** - 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [3] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.  
> 16 " ' **The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord**. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord , he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband”- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the Lord cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [4] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [5] "  
> " 'Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”  
> 23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 **If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away** , [6] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 **If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.**  
> 29 " ‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”  
> [sub]Bolding mine[/sub]

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/107 "2002-04-09T02:26:18Z")

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Where’s my cite, Skemper? Too busy down at the Klan meeting to show where a federal district court in Kentucky prevented George Washington’s Inaugural Address from being read in school?

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/108 "2002-04-09T02:27:27Z")

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If you want a debate on abortion, start one in GD. This thread is about racism, the Bible, and a few conspiracy loons.

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**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/109 "2002-04-09T02:29:57Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*  
> \*\*You and Lydia (and I REFUSE to call her “Lady” when she is anything but) have cited Chesterton many times.
> 
> :rolleyes:
> 
> Indeed. \*\*

So…are they still mostly nice ladies over there or have you changed your mind? 😃

jayjay

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**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/110 "2002-04-09T02:33:54Z")

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Going to rely on Madison now? The man who said:

> [@](#):
>
> Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov’t in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820).

and

> [@](#):
>
> Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).

OTOH, the quote you offer is [disputed to be accurate.](http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq1.htm) Get a grip, dear. You have every right to your extreme religious views, but don’t project them onto our founding fathers or our government.

As for the use of the ‘f-word.’ The word is **fuck**. It appears in the OED and was a carefully chosen expectative that illustrated my disgust. The fact that it is vulgar is axiomatic.

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/111 "2002-04-09T02:35:12Z")

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The OWNER of the site, whom I know from a costume history site, is a very nice, sweet person. I don’t know if she’s aware that some of her contributors are like this, and I don’t want to get involved.

However, if “Lady” says one more nasty thing to me, I just might.

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**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/112 "2002-04-09T02:36:43Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*  
> \*\*If you want a debate on abortion, start one in GD. This thread is about racism, the Bible, and a few conspiracy loons. \*\*

I apologize if you feel I lit the hijack fuse, but I did use a bible quote, and it was in direct response to one of the loons.

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**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/113 "2002-04-09T02:47:47Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*  
> If you want a debate on abortion, start one in GD.

**Guin** , don’t you dare direct this . . . _person_ . . . toward my stomping grounds. This loon isn’t worthy enough to so much as glance at FriendofGod’s shadow, much less start a fundie-racist witnessing quotefest.

And where’s my damn cite, Skemper? Don’t make me start using the B-word, or the F-Word, or the C-word, or the F-C-S-B-B-B-C phrase.

**Waverly**. you rock.

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**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/114 "2002-04-09T02:51:37Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> I mentioned (pauses to admire sweaty Gregory Peck) that I posted here, and if he liked to debate about various subjects, he might find this a good place to offer his point of view, or at least to read around.

An amiable suggestion: could you maybe consider perhaps not mentioning that sort of thing to insane bigots in the future? You know, as an option? You could view it as a time-budgetting exercise. The couple of minutes gained by not mentioning could be spent as a couple more minutes admiring Peck, for instance. Life is all about budgetting finite time.

I suppose you could have been worried that the SDMB would suffer from an insane bigot shortage, and wished to do your part to redress that lack. Don’t get me wrong, I think that’s laudable; I’m all for people looking out for each others’ well-being, but sometimes–perhaps this is one of those times, I think it might well be, but I’m just speaking one man’s opinion here–scarcity of a product does not equal the value of that product.

Just a thought. No charge.

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**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/115 "2002-04-09T02:56:37Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Redboss \*  
> Describing differences between groups is a reasonable activity and is open to debate or disproof. Describing one group as inferior or morally worse, or less than human can’t be supported if we value human freedom.

So if (if, **If** ) blacks are on average less intelligent than whites, acknowledging that would destroy human freedom? How?

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**Author:** ![mikan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@mikan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikan)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/116 "2002-04-09T02:58:19Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Skemper \*  
> **I am not a racist, but…**

Ah, that familiar disclaimer, predictably followed by a discharge of blatantly racist drivel. How often I have seen that. Lame, lame, lame.

You know, I wish you people would at least have the courage to step up and say that you are, in fact, racists. Embrace the term. Make it your own. Wear it as a badge of honor. Why pussy-foot around? Why try to force a ridiculous ideological marriage between being “scientific” and “Biblically correct”? Yes, it’s true that the term “racist” has negative connotations for most people, but just look at the faggots and what they’ve done with the word “queer”: not only have they come out of the closet, they’re probably having a parade right through your home town!

If you had the balls that those queers have (er, you know what I mean), you’d drop the lame disclaimer: just call yourself a racist. There’s no better word in the English language, after all, to describe your ideological stance, and you’d save yourselves (and everyone else) all that ineffective pedantic posturing. It’s not like it would alienate anyone who agrees with your cause; if anything, it would show the world that you’re not afraid to openly identify with a term simply because it’s - gasp! - politically incorrect.

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**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/117 "2002-04-09T03:07:25Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by The Ryan \*  
> So if (if, **If** ) blacks are on average less intelligent than whites . . .

So if, if, if Ryan is less inteligent than normal posters . . .

What? I’m sorry? You’d like solid proof of the predicate to that question?

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**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/118 "2002-04-09T03:08:39Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by The Ryan \*  
> \*\*  
> So if (if, **If** ) blacks are on average less intelligent than whites, acknowledging that would destroy human freedom? How? \*\*

You know damn well that is not what he said. ‘Describing differences’ is an acceptable activity [should they be shown to exist]; applying such subjective phrases as ‘inferior’ is obviously objectionable. In fact, this extends to any scientific investigation. Well defined, objectively supported findings are preferable to passing subjective judgment.

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**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/119 "2002-04-09T03:18:10Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> I suppose you could have been worried that the SDMB would suffer from an insane bigot shortage, and wished to do your part to redress that lack. Don’t get me wrong, I think that’s laudable; I’m all for people looking out for each others’ well-being, but sometimes–perhaps this is one of those times, I think it might well be, but I’m just speaking one man’s opinion here–scarcity of a product does not equal the value of that product.

Hee hee. 😃  
And from Sandy…  
Okay, Sandy,

> [@](#):
>
> Blacks in Africa have not received the gospel as a whole. It has not penetrated their hearts. They are lost and like all unsaved people of all races and cultures will go to anarchy without Christianity.

```
My word. At school, my Theology/Science professor (who spends all his summers in Africa as a missionary and doctor) used to pin us with his eyes, and say things like, "of course you don't know what Bible verse I'm quoting. You are, after all, biblically illiterate. In Africa, EVERYONE know the Beatitudes backwards. In Old English and Gaelic." Hello? Coptic Ethiopian Church? Christian long before the West? Hello?

About the swearing. This is the BBQ Pit. People swear here. I don't usually swear, but that's my choice. If you're going to be offended, don't post here. 

```

> [@](#):
>
> This summarizes my beliefs. I maintain that Martin Luther King is a communist and a pervert if you consider having relations with 8 women of both races at the same time perversion.

Hm. This particular quote (taken out of context, I admit. Mea culpa) connects communism and perversion. Don’t see any logical reason to connect them, but oh, well… and it sounds like you’re more offended by the “of both races” than by the “8 women”. Yeah, can’t have white women sleeping with black men… or any racial mixture, actually. There might be more people like ME around! Horror and shock! Even though I’m still brighter than you white folks- Jan said so :rolleyes:

I also post at LAF, and still think that most of the women there are pretty nice, especially the lady who runs it, but I agree with Guin about Lydia. It’s not a debate board. My fiance calls it an “agreement board”, and it’s not for people who are looking to debate anything.

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**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\
**Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-is-back-to-defend-himself/102329/120 "2002-04-09T03:28:04Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> James Madison, the father of the Constitution said, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it…but upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God.”

Well, yeah, but George Washington said “We must keep the Christians out of the government; if ever the Christians get into the government, then all is lost”.

I’ll give you a primary source reference for mine if you give me a primary source reference for yours. (A primary source reference is something like “letter to Angus P. Dinwiddie, August 21, 1787, _The Collected Papers of James Madison_, University of Virginia Press, Homer P. Snodgrass, ed., Vol XXI, p. 432”. It is not "Pastor Bob said so on _Pastor Bob’s Old Time Gospel Hour and Fund-Raising Extravaganza_. It also doesn’t count that Congressman the Hon. Jimmy Lee Buncombe had it inserted into the Congressional Record during one of his “Short Speeches by Blowhard Congressmen That No One But Some Poor, Underpaid Court Recorder Actually Listens To”, or whatever the official name is. With people like James Madison, everything he ever wrote–every letter, every speech, every official memo–that historians know anything about is contained in these big multi-volume sets of tomes, which you can find in your local college or university library. Go on. Give me a primary source reference for that Madison quote. Tell me when he said it or wrote it and to whom and what the circumstances were.)

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