# The Racist Roots of Gun Control **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351 "2012-12-28T04:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/81 "2012-12-29T03:42:44Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > The crime rate in my house, with 100% gun ownership, is lower than that of any country in the world. So is the suicide rate. Valuable information, that. Well, then Nancy Lanza’s fate is very valuable information then. Or, then it is true that a single data point like your anecdote is not very useful or as they say: the plural of anecdote is not data. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/82 "2012-12-29T03:51:20Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > There’s always one wise apple who reads through multiple pages of baseless claims that support his opinion, then smugly asks me to produce a cite. > > You’re not worth my time. > > How about giving me a cite that shows that “What makes a police officer valuable is not his skill at shooting, its his judgement in knowing when not to.” Or just go away. You must have me confused with someone else because I never made that claim about police officers. You however have claimed: > [@](#): > > Studies repeatedly show that private citizens are quicker to stop violent crime, and far less likely to shoot innocents, than are the police. Mostly because they are there when it happens, and I suspect, more careful. So please, produce these “studies” have “repeatedly” proven your claims. If they are genuine then they should be easy for you to produce. I don’t see why you’re angry at me for asking perfectly reasonable questions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/83 "2012-12-29T04:57:49Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > There’s always one wise apple who reads through multiple pages of baseless claims that support his opinion, then smugly asks me to produce a cite. > > You’re not worth my time. > > How about giving me a cite that shows that “What makes a police officer valuable is not his skill at shooting, its his judgement in knowing when not to.” Or just go away. Your tone is becoming inappropriate for this forum, and it would be easier to produce the cite instead of criticizing and dismissing other posters for asking for it. So cite your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/84 "2012-12-29T05:21:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your tone is becoming inappropriate for this forum, and it would be easier to produce the cite instead of criticizing and dismissing other posters for asking for it. So cite your assertion. More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws - John R. Lott, University of Chicago Press. Now I’d like cites for these assertions: “You don’t, and you aren’t. Guns don’t make people safer.” “I think you are more likely to be inclined to kill me than help me if you were to encounter me.” Originally Posted by ChickenLegs View Post I carry guns to protect my own life, my friends’ lives, my family’s lives, and the lives of innocents. “No. The police do. You don’t.” “You do not carry a gun to protect “my own life, my friends’ lives, my family’s lives, and the lives of innocents.” The police do.” “What makes a police officer valuable is not his skill at shooting, its his judgement in knowing when not to.” ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/85 "2012-12-29T05:25:00Z")
And regarding “my tone”: Is this better? “I think you are more likely to be inclined to kill me than help me if you were to encounter me.” Or this? Me: “I carry guns to protect my own life, my friends’ lives, my family’s lives, and the lives of innocents.” Him: “No. The police do. You don’t.” Where I come from, that is pretty much calling a man a liar. Pretty bad manners, as I know them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/86 "2012-12-29T05:27:02Z")
Not yet. Marry my sister, then maybe. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/87 "2012-12-29T05:30:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not yet. Marry my sister, then maybe. Is she pretty? Is she fond of eccentric older gentlmen? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/88 "2012-12-29T05:43:55Z")
Oh, yeah, John Lott! Knew that name was familiar! > [@](#): > > …When challenged, Lott has also resorted to fishy means of defending himself. About ten years ago, when critics began to question whether he had really conducted a crucial survey—on how often civilians have used guns to defend themselves against criminals, which had served as the crux of the book that made him famous—Lott failed to produce both the survey itself (citing a hard drive crash) and the names of anyone who had conducted or taken the survey. In the end, only one person, a former national board member of the NRA, ever recalled having taken the survey… Oh, dear. > [@](#): > > …Around the same time, Lott admitted that he invented a sock puppet and, under the name “Mary Rosh,” commented on liberal blogs and news articles that were critical of him… A sock puppet!! A fucking sock puppet! The lowest of the low! More fact based derision available at the source: > **[Meet John Lott, the Man Who Wants to Arm America's Teachers](https://newrepublic.com/article/111263/john-lott-gun-advocate-wants-arm-teachers-and-everyone-else)** > > He claims to be a rigorous academic. He's not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/89 "2012-12-29T05:46:11Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Me: “I carry guns to protect my own life, my friends’ lives, my family’s lives, and the lives of innocents.” > > Him: “No. The police do. You don’t.” You’re likely misreading. His implication isn’t that you don’t carry guns; it’s that your carrying of guns doesn’t protect people. This isn’t calling you a liar. It’s disagreeing with the effects of your actions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/90 "2012-12-29T05:47:52Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Is she pretty? Is she fond of eccentric older gentlmen? Just one. Oh, almost forgot Mr Lott’s big hit _The Bias Against Guns_, in which he explains the unfortunate psychological defects that cause people not to accept the crystalline clarity of his arguments. Apparently, some people were willing to pay good money for that information. ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/91 "2012-12-29T05:49:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I when the statistics show that guns in a home are more likely to kill themselves or an innocent than a criminal. > t; that’s paranoia. only if you look at the completely debunked kellerman study. If Hitler had won the war anti gunners would be citing Leni Riefenstahl. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/92 "2012-12-29T05:53:26Z")
Funny you should mention debunking. From the above cited article… > [@](#): > > …Lott allowed Professors Dan Black and Daniel Nagin to reevaluate his data for their 1998 inquiry into the effects of concealed-carry laws on violent crime rates. Their findings, published in the Journal of Legal Studies in 1998, blew a hole in his: “Our reanalysis of Lott and [co-author David] Mustard’s data provides no basis for drawing confident conclusions about the impact of right-to-carry laws on violent crime,” they wrote. “As a result, inference based on the Lott and Mustard model is inappropriate, and their results cannot be used responsibly to formulate public policy.” Four years later, Ian Ayres of Yale and John J. Donohue III of Stanford Law gave his scholarship an even more vicious debunking… ---
**Author:** ![gunchris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@gunchris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gunchris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/93 "2012-12-29T05:53:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re likely misreading. His implication isn’t that you don’t carry guns; it’s that your carrying of guns doesn’t protect people. This isn’t calling you a liar. It’s disagreeing with the effects of your actions. The police carry guns to protect themselves, not the citizen. They have no legal obligation to protect anyone > [@](#): > > Warren v. District of Columbia ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/94 "2012-12-29T06:00:40Z")
> [@gunchris](#): > > The police carry guns to protect themselves, not the citizen. They have no legal obligation to protect anyone I’m about the last person to get dewy eyed in automatic celebration of police officers as necessarily being heros, but we have all observed ample evidence of them willingly sacrificing themselves to protect others that your point above is readily seen by all as without merit. You seem like an angry person with so much invested in guns that they define and identify you. Citing Lott should become as discrediting to an argument as Godwinizing has now become. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/95 "2012-12-29T06:02:11Z")
You’re traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That’s the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/96 "2012-12-29T06:11:48Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws - John R. Lott, University of Chicago Press. Oh my God. I nearly pissed myself laughing at this. John Lott is your cite? The John Lott, who’s been labeled and unreliable liar by that flaming liberal Michelle Malkin. [http://townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/2003/02/05/the\_other\_lott\_controversy/page/2](http://townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/2003/02/05/the_other_lott_controversy/page/2) Dude, when the woman who’s such a right-wing nut she defends the internment of Japanese-Americans thinks your guy is unreliable, you’ve got problems. Lott is the guy who got pushed out of his job at The American Enterprise Institute due to questions about his ethics and his competence. For those not in the know, The American Enterprise Institute is not known for being a hot bed of liberalism, yet they, the organization that is still willing to employ America’s most famous scientific racist Charles Murray found Lott to be a right-wing hack. For those not aware, Lott was found to be engaging in what could be described as at best “shoddy research” and more accurately “junk science” in the very book that Chicken has used as his source for his rather bizarre claim. Most famously of all, much of the book was based on a survey who, when it’s methods were questioned and he was credibly accused by other academics of making up the survey, he promptly “lost” all evidence of the existence of the survey in a computer crash and he was unable to produce any evidence of the existence of this survey or even name any of the students who supposedly helped him with this survey. In Malkin’s words > [@](#): > > **Michelle Malkin** > Lott claims to have lost all of his data due to a computer crash. He financed the survey himself and kept no financial records. He has forgotten the names of the students who allegedly helped with the survey and who supposedly dialed thousands of survey respondents long-distance from their own dorm rooms using survey software Lott can’t identify or produce. Assuming the survey data was lost in a computer crash, it is still remarkable that Lott could not produce a single, contemporaneous scrap of paper proving the survey’s existence, such as the research protocol or survey instrument. Lott was also caught creating sock puppets on various websites to praise his own work and claim how thorough and reliable it was which is certainly not the hallmark of the reliable academic. In fact, James, Lindgren, a Law Professor at Northwestern Law School, one of primary bloggers for The Volokh Conspiracy(again not exactly a hotbed of liberalism) a noted Second Amendment scholar famous for discrediting _Arming America_ and destroying Michael Bellesiles thought he’d help out Lott and started investigating the survey to prove it’s existence. However, after Lott kept changing his story in their interviews and several things wound up not adding up, he also wound up ripping into and discrediting Lott and his alleged “survey”. Here is Lindgren’s report. [http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/lindgren.html](http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/guns/lindgren.html) It’s worth noting that earlier in this thread Chicken rather bizarrely suggested all studies that supported the pro-gun control side of the debate should be discarded because of the discrediting of Bellesiles’ _Arming America_, but he was apparently completely ignorant of the fact that the guy who’d discredited Bellesiles found similar issues with the source for his own rather ludicrous claims. That being said, I will salute Chicken for essentially admitting that the studies weren’t credible because if your only source for them is from a proven liar and academic fraud, then, by definition they’re not credible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/97 "2012-12-29T06:35:02Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Him: “No. The police do. You don’t.” > > Where I come from, that is pretty much calling a man a liar. Pretty bad manners, as I know them. Not in **this** messageboard/forum, it ain’t, as you will know precious fucking well if ye’ve been lurking here more than a week. It is the **routine** and **polite** manners, just exactly as it/they should be. Bad-and-shitsinful manners would be failing to provide the cite, and/or the failure to accept any and all consequences of thus though citing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/98 "2012-12-29T06:42:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’re traveling through another dimensionm . . . Of voeyeuristic intention. And, well-secluded, I see all. And, y’know what? It ain’t all that interesting. Not even in the Chinese sense. Crisis and opportunity have an utterly platititudistic relationship. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/99 "2012-12-29T08:37:42Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > The odds of an American being a victim of violent crime in any given year is about 2%, if I recall correctly. Nope, it’s [actually much much lower](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime), around .39%. > [@](#): > > I’m sure it’s somewhat lower in Wyoming. We’re pretty much all armed. It is lower in Wyoming, at around .22%, but I have no idea why you think being armed is the reason. It’s even lower, .19% in New Hampshire, where not many people are armed, and only a bit higher, .28% in Hawaii, where pretty much nobody is armed. [Cite](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-5). Just for fun, your murder/nonnegligent-manslaughter rate is higher than the following states: Colorado Hawaii Idaho Iowa Maine Massachusetts Minnesota Montana New Hampshire Oregon Rhode Island South Dakota Utah Vermont Washington Wisconsin Hell, you’re not a lot lower than New York. Mississippi, which is also a heavily armed state is actually twice as high as New York. Aren’t facts fun? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/100 "2012-12-29T19:47:25Z")
In Wyoming you never know when the pistol in some teenage girl’s purse is going to go off. [http://www.k2tv.com/news.php?id=1137](http://www.k2tv.com/news.php?id=1137) It seems juveniles are not legally entitled to concealed carry in Wyoming, even though no _adult_ needs a permit. _That’s_ why she’s in trouble. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351.md?page=6)