# The Racist Roots of Gun Control **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351 "2012-12-28T04:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/141 "2012-12-31T16:00:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Ibn Warraq** , you’ve been here long enough to know you can’t insult other people and call them frauds this way. I’m giving you yet another warning for this post. Fair enough. I let him get my goat and shouldn’t have. That being said, in multiple posts on this thread he’s accused me of being a liar. Shouldn’t he get a warning for that? Particularly since he’s already been warned on this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/142 "2012-12-31T16:19:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Shouldn’t he get a warning for that? Particularly since he’s already been warned on this thread? Ask me next month. For the record, **ChickenLegs** , you cannot call other posters liars in this forum. That entire issue looks like a misunderstanding anyway, but accusations of lying aren’t permitted in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/143 "2012-12-31T16:33:48Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I am _so_ picturing you giving this speech while wearing an ill-fitting homemade Batman costume. (By the way, one of your pecs is slipping.) > > Of the many pro-gun arguments, this one—that those who \*don’t \*feel the need to be armed everywhere they go are the true cowards, who owe a debt of gratitude to the proud few who wear their courage on their hip—is among the most risible. > > And I say that as a gun owner. He stands on a wall and says nothing is going to hurt you tonight. All buck 60 of him, soaking wet and shaking with righteousness. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/144 "2012-12-31T18:56:41Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > “I find the persona you’re projecting highly improbable for a number of reasons and think you’re far younger and vastly more obese and far more likely to be living in your mother’s basement than you’re trying to pretend and if you had access to guns would be far more likely to accidentally shoot yourself while cleaning the gun than you would be confronted by a mugger or home invader.” > > Nice edit, Ibn Warraq. Too slow, though. > > For the record, I’m 47 years old, weigh about 160 (10 pounds more than my best weight), and live in a nice house in a subdivision. And so far, the accidental shootings to home inavder ratio for me is 0:0. Dude: [Post 123](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15846961&postcount=123). [Post 124](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15846965&postcount=124). Scroll all the way up, next time. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/145 "2012-12-31T21:30:15Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > I believe this: Able-bodied men have a duty to defend themselves, their families, and the weaker members of society from violent attack, using the most effective means possible. Voluntarily outsourcing this duty to others is about is a dereliction of this duty. I understand that there are those that lack the fortitude to do what a peaceful society requires, in order to remain peaceful. I do no fault you for this, all men are not born with the same abilities or mental make-up. Those that can will cover for those that can’t. What I do fault you for is trying to defend your handicap by belittling those that are not so encumbered. Please, wallow silently in your inabilities, but don’t insult the men that are unencumbered. It grows tiresome. I am a strong advocate for concealed-carry laws, but I view them as giving people the choice to go about armed if they wish. I don’t see how it is a duty that all should engage in, nor that this has ever been the case. Being armed is a right, but not a duty, as are all other rights. In the event you return to this thread, could you expand on your reasoning? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/146 "2013-01-01T14:31:05Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > I believe this: Able-bodied men have a duty to defend themselves, their families, and the weaker members of society from violent attack, using the most effective means possible. Voluntarily outsourcing this duty to others is about is a dereliction of this duty. The weirdest part of this isn’t the obvious correlation between low crime rates and “outsourcing this duty to others” (i.e., a strong government). The weirdest part of this isn’t your advocacy of cultural norms (the individual rather than the state is responsible for crime prevention) that historically have led to rampant violence. No. The weirdest part of this is the implication that this duty is tied to the testicles. Help me understand why you think this duty falls to men and not to women. What about gay men, do they have the same duty? Trans-men? Trans-women? What’s the mechanism for this duty? If the duty’s relationship to the y chromosome is supernatural or superstitious or religious, then of course it’s something that you won’t be able to explain. But it equally has no part in discussion of public policy, any more than your (possible, I dunno) belief in Thetans would have any place in discussion of public policy. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/147 "2013-01-03T06:17:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t see how it is a duty that all should engage in, nor that this has ever been the case. Being armed is a right, but not a duty, as are all other rights. Yet this kis perception exists and is surprisingly prevelant. I had quite the argument with a normally rational gun owning friend when I told him I was taking CCW classes. He lectured me that I would be morally and legally bound to defend anyone in distress that I happen across. I’ve met a few others with similar misunderstandings since. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/148 "2013-01-03T06:21:10Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Yet this kis perception exists and is surprisingly prevelant. I had quite the argument with a normally rational gun owning friend when I told him I was taking CCW classes. He lectured me that I would be morally and legally bound to defend anyone in distress that I happen across. > > I’ve met a few others with similar misunderstandings since. Hah, that’s a good one. When I got my CCW permit, it didn’t come with a super hero uniform as well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/149 "2013-01-03T06:46:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Perhaps most crucially, if the UK rate of violent crime was actually so much higher than the US, why do we have four times the homicide rate? Well, in the UK, “violent crime” encompasses things that make you **wish** you were dead, like snubs. Also, and rather confusingly, haggis-bludgeonings. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/150 "2013-01-03T06:48:51Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > I believe this: Able-bodied men have a duty to defend themselves, their families, and the weaker members of society from violent attack, using the most effective means possible. “The most effective means possible” involves paying your taxes; it does not involve owning or carrying firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/151 "2013-01-03T14:01:21Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Voluntarily outsourcing this duty to others is about is a dereliction of this duty. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The weirdest part of this isn’t the obvious correlation between low crime rates and “outsourcing this duty to others” (i.e., a strong government). The weirdest part of this isn’t your advocacy of cultural norms (the individual rather than the state is responsible for crime prevention) that historically have led to rampant violence. It shouldn’t be an either/or proposition. We can have a strong government, with the state in charge of crime prevention and justice, but also have the means of self-defense available to citizens for those situations in which the state’s agents aren’t present. We can have fire departments _and_ privately-owned fire extinguishers, as an analogy. > [@Hbns](#): > > Yet this kis perception exists and is surprisingly prevelant. I had quite the argument with a normally rational gun owning friend when I told him I was taking CCW classes. He lectured me that I would be morally and legally bound to defend anyone in distress that I happen across. > > I’ve met a few others with similar misunderstandings since. > [@JXJohns](#): > > Hah, that’s a good one. When I got my CCW permit, it didn’t come with a super hero uniform as well. That’s alien to my experience as well. I accepted the responsibility to not carry in a few prohibited places, and the duty to have my license on my person any time I was carrying, and that’s it as far as legal duties go. I don’t know where this people come up with these cockeyed ideas. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “The most effective means possible” involves paying your taxes; it does not involve owning or carrying firearms. That’s true in the general case, but there are incidents in which possessing a firearm is a better guarantor of one’s safety than the existence of a police department: namely, lethal threats that occur outside the presence of a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/152 "2013-01-03T15:01:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It shouldn’t be an either/or proposition. We can have a strong government, with the state in charge of crime prevention and justice, but also have the means of self-defense available to citizens for those situations in which the state’s agents aren’t present. We can have fire departments _and_ privately-owned fire extinguishers, as an analogy. For your analogy to work, fire extinguishers would be exemplary tools for setting fires and the preferred tool of arsonists everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/153 "2013-01-03T15:20:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > For your analogy to work, fire extinguishers would be exemplary tools for setting fires and the preferred tool of arsonists everywhere. Not really. In terms of self-defense, a firearm in the possession of a law-abiding citizen is equivalent to a fire extinguisher: a tool for dealing with a rare but life-threatening incident if the state apparatus tasked with the job is unable to respond in a timely manner. Any analogy with guns (cars, alcohol, swimming pools) is flawed, because only guns are guns. I understand this. But, it should be understood that the vast majority of firearms are not used for criminal purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/154 "2013-01-03T15:49:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not really. In terms of self-defense, a firearm in the possession of a law-abiding citizen is equivalent to a fire extinguisher: a tool for dealing with a rare but life-threatening incident if the state apparatus tasked with the job is unable to respond in a timely manner. …and fire extinguishers are likelier to be used to set a family member on fire than they are to extinguish a fire. And arsonists buying fire extinguishers are indistinguishable from homeowners buying them to protect their homes. And stolen fire extinguishers are often used to set fires. And fire extinguishers are purchased in bulk in unregulated areas then transported to areas where they’re more heavily regulated and used to set fires there. Very few people object to a legal gun owner’s use of a gun to protect the lives of their loved ones. The objections aren’t to that: the objections are to the inevitable consequences of making guns easily available both to good guys and bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/155 "2013-01-04T03:53:46Z")
My objection is to policies that propose to deal with this… > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > the objections are to the inevitable consequences of making guns easily available both to good guys and bad guys. By eliminating this… > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Very few people object to a legal gun owner’s use of a gun to protect the lives of their loved ones. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351/156 "2013-01-22T09:12:49Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > I believe this: Able-bodied men have a duty to defend themselves, their families, and the weaker members of society from violent attack, using the most effective means possible. Voluntarily outsourcing this duty to others is about is a dereliction of this duty. I understand that there are those that lack the fortitude to do what a peaceful society requires, in order to remain peaceful. I do no fault you for this, all men are not born with the same abilities or mental make-up. Those that can will cover for those that can’t. When you find yourself in danger, When you’re threatened by a stranger, When it looks like you will take a lickin’, (cluck, cluck, cluck, cluck) There is someone waiting who Will hurry up and rescue you, Just call…for Super Chicken! (cluck, awk!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-roots-of-gun-control/645351.md?page=7)