# The racist Tea Party is in love with Herman Cain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876 "2011-10-26T16:57:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/141 "2011-10-27T13:51:25Z")
Great. Thanks for helping, **Buchanan**. > [@Buchanan](#): > > To me, not drawing valid conclusions based on group membership due to observed propensity for certain behaviors is ignorant and wishful thinking. The problem with this approach is that uses the fallacy of the general rule. It is an invidious inference to ascribe to an individual negative characteristics of the group he belongs to, even if it can be said that more than 50% of his group has those characteristics. But hey – I certainly appreciate your great contributions to this thread. Stop helping now, mmmkay? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/142 "2011-10-27T13:55:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So let’s get this straight: you (using the pronoun in its indefinite sense) accuse the Tea Party of racism. I point out that the Tea Party’s favored candidate, by a substantial margin, is black. And this is your rebuttal. > > Assuming you mean for this to be a sarcastic reminder of the typical racists’ refrain, I’d say it’s misplaced: although racists often trot out that line, it seems to me that a close and honest examination of their friends would reveal that the claim is a lie. > > Here, in contrast, the truth is that Cain is the favored candidate of the Tea Party by a heavy margin. I suppose you might posit some scenario where the Tea Party has agreed to feign interest in Cain, but that seems far-fetched; a presidential primary does not typically leave room for head fakes when the actors are thousands of people who would have to act in concert, and secretly. > > So speak plainly: what is your rebuttal? Willingness to vote for a black candidate is, at best, weak evidence against claims of racism, for reasons that the entirety of the messageboard has dogpiled on in the intervening 24 hours since I made my post. Some people don’t know Herman Cain is black. (Seriously. A number of the people I’ve talked to have heard his name, but never seen his face.) Thus, racists who are simply ignorant. Some people would be willing to vote for “one of them blacks” provided that his policy positions suit them. Racists willing to compromise their racism for ideology. Some don’t like most blacks, but ‘this one’s okay’. Some might prefer him to ‘prove’ their not racist. Some might choose him ‘tactically’ to try and even out any racial factors in the general election. And I bet a few Tea Partiers actually aren’t racist. But we can’t make any kind of inference from this evidence. Racism is not a binary behavior switch. If you are racist against black people it does not mean you must invariably oppose them in whatever they do. It means that absent other factors, you are far more likely to do so - but in an election, there are lots of other factors. And no, the one-line rebuttal is not misplaced - the “some of my best friends are..” line is not usually a _lie_, in my experience, so much as it is a self-delusional defense mechanism to assure oneself one is not racist. The statement is objectively false, but the speaker believes it to some degree or another. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/143 "2011-10-27T14:19:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is the part where the DA smiles, looks at the jury, and says, “No further questions, your honor.” And then the 6th-grade teacher slaps your desk and wakes you, “Pay attention, boy, pay attention!. Do you want to remain stupid your whole life?” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/144 "2011-10-27T14:25:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And then the 6th-grade teacher slaps your desk and wakes you, “Pay attention, boy, pay attention!. Do you want to remain stupid your whole life?” I’ll leave it to the peanut gallery to decide if I’m stupid or not. I note that you don’t attempt rebuttal, but simply distraction. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/145 "2011-10-27T14:28:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Of course this doesn’t remotely resemble the rhetoric people used to use when talking about Irish immigrants. > > Beyond that I can’t help but chuckle at how paranoid so many white people are about Hispanic immigrants. > > Beyond that, thanks for admitting that your problem isn’t **illegal immigrants** but is instead **illegal immigrants that are Hispanic**. > > Essentially, you just torpedoed your own argument since treating people differently based on their race or ethnicity, I.E. being more afraid of illegal Guatemalan immigrants than illegal Irish immigrants is the vey definition of racism. Not so fast. You asked if he hated them with the “same passion”. Given that the comparative size of the problem and the lack of Canadian hate-America groups or movements seeking to take over large swaths of the U.S., it would be odd in the extreme if the illegals coming from Canada would spark the same passions as those coming from the southern border. But since you seem so concerned with this, can you show how big this problem is of Canadian citizens sneaking into the U.S. What do the numbers look like? 3? 4? 12? 100? 0? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/146 "2011-10-27T14:39:19Z")
Are you telling me that their are no racists who follow the NFL? Or listen to and like popular US music? Here’s the thing - racism isn’t rational and it’s an opinion held by stupid and\or the ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/147 "2011-10-27T14:40:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not so fast. You asked if he hated them with the “same passion”. Given that the comparative size of the problem and the lack of Canadian hate-America groups or movements seeking to take over large swaths of the U.S., it would be odd in the extreme if the illegals coming from Canada would spark the same passions as those coming from the southern border. > > But since you seem so concerned with this, can you show how big this problem is of Canadian citizens sneaking into the U.S. What do the numbers look like? 3? 4? 12? 100? 0? Er…he said he didn’t like them in part because they weren’t of his “own physical race”. I’d like to know what he considers his “own physical race”. Norwegians, Jamaicans, Jews, Chinese, Irish, Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Iranians? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/148 "2011-10-27T14:40:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’ll leave it to the peanut gallery to decide if I’m stupid or not. > > I note that you don’t attempt rebuttal, but simply distraction. A substantive rebuttal to this: [QUOTE=Lobohan] This is the part where the DA smiles, looks at the jury, and says, “No further questions, your honor.” [/QUOTE] ?!!! My God, you really are an imbecile!! Now why don’t you go back and rebut Lonesome Polecat’s response to you, rather than attempt to “distract” or dismiss it? Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/149 "2011-10-27T14:51:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er…he said he didn’t like them in part because they weren’t of his “own physical race”. > > I’d like to know what he considers his “own physical race”. > > Norwegians, Jamaicans, Jews, Chinese, Irish, Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Iranians? But you didn’t point that out until a subsequent post. Still, without getting into a major hijack regarding the validity of “race”, he was obviously using the term to point to Hispanics as a distinct group, and he didn’t say race exclusively, but used “race and culture”. That makes it clear what he’s talking about. And then he even goes to explain why. It would really be helpful if you wouldn’t go down the tiresome road of extracting tiny snippets from someone’s fuller points intent on playing a desperate game of gotcha. By the way, your list above brings nationalities into the discussion about race. Which one are you trying to discuss? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/150 "2011-10-27T15:02:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not in a vacuum, no. > > But let’s reason this out a bit. We’re assuming that 32% of the Tea Party are egalitarian, and the other 68% racist. > > How is it that the 32% would go uniformly to Cain? That is, all other things being equal amongst the egalitarians, we’d expect to see the same sort of uniform distribution among them – Cain favored, but not uniformly, and other support distributed among other candidates, right? > > And among the 68%, Cain would be eliminated as a possibility due to his race, so their distribution of support would be among the others in similar proportion to the 32%. > > That doesn’t make sense. > > To get to 32% that support Cain, you must concede that a majority are not racists, or posit that Cain is so oibviously the best choice that no reasonable person would choose another candidate, except on racial grounds. Except that it is not a race among equals. It is a race between the Black Guy and the Cultist, who are both spouting the same party line. The question then is which do the racist, Christian tea partiers hate more: the Black Guy or the Morman? Since most of the primary season has been about them trying to find a NOT-Romney to run, I am guessing that Mormon and Liberal-esque is more of a problem then a Black Guy who says the right things. Notice that Cain did not get traction until all the other NOT-Romney’s currently in the race flamed out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/151 "2011-10-27T15:10:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I thought no matter how ideological one is on this forum one would not be so blatantly misleading and dishonest. You’re not in the Pit here. Be very careful about personal remarks like this. Saying a post is incorrect is allowed; calling a poster dishonest is strongly discouraged. > [@magellan01](#): > > My God, you really are an imbecile!! Personal insults like this are not allowed here. This is a formal warning not to do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Buchanan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Buchanan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buchanan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/152 "2011-10-27T15:41:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Great. Thanks for helping, **Buchanan**. > > The problem with this approach is that uses the fallacy of the general rule. It is an invidious inference to ascribe to an individual negative characteristics of the group he belongs to, even if it can be said that more than 50% of his group has those characteristics. > > But hey – I certainly appreciate your great contributions to this thread. Stop helping now, mmmkay? I wasn’t trying to “help you”, I was sharing my opinion. My point was that race provides information which is valuable to consider, given propensities of groups of which I pointed out only one related to crime. I’ll wait for a cite which disproves my assertions rather than just being told it is “terrible” or “ignorant”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/153 "2011-10-27T15:49:10Z")
They haven’t voted for him yet, and there are plenty of racist teabaggers, if not the majority. But they are not admitting that they are racist, in fact they are denying it. Despite the signs and birtherism. When the time comes to vote, I can’t imagine that Cain will break 30 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/154 "2011-10-27T15:56:33Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Willingness to vote for a black candidate is, at best, weak evidence against claims of racism, for reasons that the entirety of the messageboard has dogpiled on in the intervening 24 hours since I made my post. > > Some people don’t know Herman Cain is black. (Seriously. A number of the people I’ve talked to have heard his name, but never seen his face.) Thus, racists who are simply ignorant. Some people would be willing to vote for “one of them blacks” provided that his policy positions suit them. Racists willing to compromise their racism for ideology. Some don’t like most blacks, but ‘this one’s okay’. Some might prefer him to ‘prove’ their not racist. Some might choose him ‘tactically’ to try and even out any racial factors in the general election. And I bet a few Tea Partiers actually aren’t racist. But we can’t make any kind of inference from this evidence. > > Racism is not a binary behavior switch. If you are racist against black people it does not mean you must invariably oppose them in whatever they do. It means that absent other factors, you are far more likely to do so - but in an election, there are lots of other factors. > > And no, the one-line rebuttal is not misplaced - the “some of my best friends are..” line is not usually a _lie_, in my experience, so much as it is a self-delusional defense mechanism to assure oneself one is not racist. The statement is objectively false, but the speaker believes it to some degree or another. I absolutely refuse to believe (absent more compelling evidence) that any statistically significant number of Tea Party supporters don’t know Herman Cain in black. That aside, your other objections return us to this point: the common-sense response to the charge of racism in the group is to point out that the single candidate with the lion’s share of their support is black. No matter how closely he espoused their positions, I can’t imagine the KKK or the Neo-Nazis supporting a black leader. Your charge, then, is that there’s a weak-tea racism afoot, one that sublimates itself to more substantive issues, like policy. If true, how could we disprove it? Carefully crafted research? Interviews with polygraph verification? And more to the point: why does the side disproving it have that burden? The charge of racism is made, and seemingly stuck, on rumor, hearsay, and innuendo, while the challenge to disprove it requires pure science, ready for peer review. That seems unbalanced to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/155 "2011-10-27T15:58:39Z")
> [@Buchanan](#): > > I wasn’t trying to “help you”, I was sharing my opinion. My point was that race provides information which is valuable to consider, given propensities of groups of which I pointed out only one related to crime. > > I’ll wait for a cite which disproves my assertions rather than just being told it is “terrible” or “ignorant”. The cite is the [Fallacy Of The General Rule](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#generalrule). It doesn’t disprove your assertion, but rather shows it to be logically fallacious, leaving you with no assertion at all, since the burden is on you, the proponent, to demonstrate the truth of your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/156 "2011-10-27T16:25:15Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I’m actually surprised it took until post #69 for you to quote me. I knew it was coming, but thought it’d be earlier in the day with the way the thread was going. Thanks for keeping me amused in any case. Didn’t have to be you. “Voting reform and the existence of the Tea Party are both reactions to one thing, and one thing only: A black man in the White House.” Or: “Right now, the Tea Party is seen by conservatives as a strong, viable venture, and liberals as a bunch of insane racists trying to foment armed revolution.” (Granted, this post doesn’t directly advance the truth of the racism claim – merely the claim that liberals see the Tea Party as racists.) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/157 "2011-10-27T16:48:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That aside, your other objections return us to this point: the common-sense response to the charge of racism in the group is to point out that the single candidate with the lion’s share of their support is black. No matter how closely he espoused their positions, I can’t imagine the KKK or the Neo-Nazis supporting a black leader. Yes, I’m sure the hard-core racist purists in the Tea Party found one of the other candidates to vote for. What’s your point? No one said the Tea Party was the KKK. Again, racism is not a binary on/off switch. > [@](#): > > Your charge, then, is that there’s a weak-tea racism afoot, one that sublimates itself to more substantive issues, like policy. > > If true, how could we disprove it? Carefully crafted research? Interviews with polygraph verification? > > And more to the point: why does the side disproving it have that burden? The charge of racism is made, and seemingly stuck, on rumor, hearsay, and innuendo, while the challenge to disprove it requires pure science, ready for peer review. > > That seems unbalanced to me. How about the polls that have already been presented to you that prove the Tea Party is more racist than the general population? It’s hard to disprove something that’s true. **Willingness to vote for a black candidate doesn’t mean you’re not racist.** Guess what? Some of the Democrats who voted for Obama are racist too. My ‘charge’ is that your fundamental premise for your OP is based on flawed logic. And now you’re scrambling around trying to find a new place to draw a line so you can engage in your usual tactics, but no one is playing that game. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/158 "2011-10-27T16:57:30Z")
[Relevant Slate article.](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2011/10/herman_cain_campaign_does_it_prove_the_tea_party_isn_t_racist_.single.html) > [@Bricker](#): > > No matter how closely he espoused their positions, I can’t imagine the KKK or the Neo-Nazis supporting a black leader. I agree- although it’s worth pointing out that several Klan groups supported Obama because they thought a black president might scare enough whites to kick off their racial holy war. However, the KKK and Neo-Nazis are equivalent to single-issue voters. Even if we accept the premise that the Tea Party is racist, most of us do not believe that the Tea Party is _primarily_ racist. Members might object to Obama because he’s black, but people who are able to function normally in a mixed-race society are unlikely to go out and protest _just because_ he’s black. Obviously, that would not be the case for Klansmen. Put another way, I have a certain level of antipathy for any pro-life electoral candidate. That doesn’t mean I won’t vote for one if I support his other positions. Considering the quality of the current Republican field, and the fact that ~23% of Republican voters won’t vote for a Mormon, it’s certainly not inconceivable that some- or even many- are holding their noses and supporting the negro. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/159 "2011-10-27T16:59:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Personal insults like this are not allowed here. This is a formal warning not to do this again. Oops. My apologies. I was posting here and in the Pit and got the two fora confused. Though, I think a lighter moderation slap should have been used. Things like this happen. Again, though, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876/160 "2011-10-27T17:05:17Z")
You got off easy. Had it been **TomnDeb** , you’d have been in for a severe but calmly stated scolding! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-racist-tea-party-is-in-love-with-herman-cain/600876.md?page=9)