# The Raised Fist as a Political Symbol **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245 "2020-08-28T14:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/1 "2020-08-28T14:42:56Z")
Is the reason the raised fist is such an effective political symbol is because it was used as a nonverbal way to communicate aggression and/or dominance for as long as humans have existed. I assert, without any facts to back it up, that it was even used by our non-human hominoid ancestors as well. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/2 "2020-08-28T16:03:38Z")
> **[Raised fist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_fist)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The raised fist, or the clenched fist, is a long-standing image of mixed meaning, often a symbol of political solidarity. It is also a common symbol of communism, socialism, and other revolutionary social movements. It can also represent a salute to express unity, strength, or resistance. > The origin of the raised fist as either a symbol or gesture is unclear. Its use in trade unionism, anarchism, and the labor movement had begun by the 1910s. Wil... It’s not as old as you might think. At least it’s not recorded as being a symbol, political or otherwise, until around 1900. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/3 "2020-08-28T16:17:31Z")
I believe it was used as a form of nonverbal communication long, long before it was ever used as a political symbol. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/4 "2020-08-28T16:47:39Z")
I think of a fist raised in the air (like the way the Olympians did it in whatever Olympics that was) meant unity and support, especially if it’s done with a bowed head. Thrust forward with an aggressive posture and demeanor might mean aggression or dominance, but the typical raised fist gesture doesn’t look that way to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/5 "2020-08-28T17:04:55Z")
I do think that when Mr. Smith and Mr. Carlos used the symbol in 1968 they were trying to communicate unity and support. However, that meaning of the symbol was developed very late in human history. When some ancient cave man used the symbol, unity and support were probably the last things on his mind. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/7 "2020-08-28T17:54:13Z")
So are you asking what it meant to cavemen or what it means to modern humans? ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/8 "2020-08-28T18:00:39Z")
I am asking why it is such an **effective** and **efficient** political symbol? When the heroes Smith and Carlos used it at the 1968 Olympics, it was instantly recognized world-wide as a strong statement, even by those who were not familiar with it’s political connotations. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/9 "2020-08-28T18:52:06Z")
probably because when people who weren’t familiar with the symbol saw it they had it explained to them at which point they understood its meaning. ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/10 "2020-08-28T18:57:39Z")
Sure, I think a fist pump would be in order after killing a dinosaur. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/11 "2020-08-28T18:57:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > probably because when people who weren’t familiar with the symbol saw it they had it explained to them at which point they understood its meaning. I assert that even before they had it explained to them they instantly perceived it as a powerful statement. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/12 "2020-08-28T19:01:14Z")
I think it was a Black power symbol before it was used by the athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/13 "2020-08-28T19:05:09Z")
Yes it was and it was used not too long before that, relatively speaking, by the communists and socialists. It was not a spontaneous act by Smith and Carlos. Note how they were very careful with their other postures and actions - head bowed and silent. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/14 "2020-08-28T19:46:39Z")
I think there’s a difference between the solidarity fist gesture and a cocked fist, which seems to be what you are equating it with. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/15 "2020-08-28T20:08:09Z")
**eschrodinger** : I don’t doubt there is a difference between the **meaning** of the raised fist used as a political statement and the raised fist used as a nonverbal communication of aggression and/or dominance. Can you tell us exactly how you thnk the two gestures differ physically? Is there a standard format for the political gesture? I conjecture that very ancient people tended to use both hands to make the gesture to signal aggression unless they had a weapon in one hand. I further conjecture they raised the hand or hands far above their heads when they wanted to communicate to someone far away. This would also would have been a way to make themselves appear bigger. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/16 "2020-08-28T20:24:47Z")
That’s a lot of conjectures, mate. Do you have any sort of evidence as to why we should take any of them seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/17 "2020-08-28T20:37:04Z")
When I used to work with the mentally disabled I saw the raised clenched fist(s) used as a way to nonverbally communicate aggression and an assertion of dominance on numerous occasions. It was very clear it was not intended as a political statement. If you want me to look for some scholarly research on nonverbal primate communication, I would be glad to do so for you later. At the moment, I am going out the door to go birdwatching. Thank you everyone for your interest in this topic. Bye for now. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/18 "2020-08-28T22:06:07Z")
I found [a source](https://www.aiga.org/not-your-grandparent-s-clenched-fist) which says, without clear evidence, that it comes from as early as 1848. > “The fist of protest has its roots in the deep traditions of revolutionary imagery of 1848 and French Romantic painting.” 1848 in France means the February Revolution, where the “Citizen-King” Louis-Phillipe was overthrown. Indeed, the article you linked to includes an image of the painting _The Uprising (L’Emeute)_ by Honoré Daumier, known as a cartoonist in his own lifetime, completed between 1848 and his death in 1879. That painting is currently part of [the Philips Collection](https://www.phillipscollection.org/collection/browse-the-collection?id=0384), and according to the late Mr. Phillips, ‘the jewel of his unit of works by Honoré Daumier’ and a “symbol of all pent up human indignation”. My first thought however was _Liberty Leading the People_, that famous 1830 painting by Delacroix where Marianne stands in the middle of a battlefield: **the literal right hand of Liberty forms a fist above her head to hold the flag of the revolution** , while her left hand is at her side holding an infantry gun with bayonet. That painting actually describes the July Revolution of 1830, but it was somewhat censored until Louis-Phillipe was deposed in 1848, and wildly popular in the years after. (“Having hailed the accession of Louis-Philippe, the work was hidden from public view during the king’s reign”). You can see a copy of the painting by following this link to the Louvre’s website: [Think big! - Les Salles Rouges (The Red Rooms)](https://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/july-28-liberty-leading-people) I doubt you will find much farther back than that except by coincidence. For example, apparently the Museum of Egyptian Antiquities in Cairo has [two statues](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kairo_Museum_Stele_Ramses_I._Horus_Seth_02.jpg) which appear to show Horus and Seth kneeling down on their right knees, their right arms extended straight out to the side and bent at a ninety-degree angle, right hands clenched into a fist with palms facing forward, and left hands clenched into a fist with palms against their stomachs. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/19 "2020-08-29T01:00:47Z")
I remember hearing about and seeing Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising their fists during the medals ceremony at the 1968 Olympics when I was a youngster right as it was happening. It was a really big deal at the time. The image is now an icon in the history of the civil rights movement of the 1960s. It wasn’t until I was older that I realized how brave they were and how their actions brought world-wide attention to the civil rights movement. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/20 "2020-08-29T01:31:33Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > When some ancient cave man used the symbol, unity and support were probably the last things on his mind. Do you have any evidence of this? You seem to start at your conclusion and are working back to find anything that supports it, dismissing the documented account of its origins. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/21 "2020-08-29T01:43:09Z")
What have I dismissed? I have not dismissed the cites in this thread about its origins and meaning as a **political** statement. I found some cites relating to its use as a symbol of aggression in modern healthcare settings but nothing about its use by cave men. But I haven’t looked very hard yet. The same symbol can have two different meanings. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245.md?page=2)