# The Raised Fist as a Political Symbol **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245 "2020-08-28T14:42:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/42 "2020-08-29T06:13:13Z")
What if we were talking just about political symbols. Then what would you do? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/43 "2020-08-29T06:14:53Z")
Both of those could be political symbols that fit nicely on posters or as little logos. I ruled out the fist patting my heart though. ETA: [https://www.google.com/search?q=crossed+fists+icon&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=crossed+fists+icon&tbm=isch) [https://www.google.com/search?q=fists+bump+icon&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=fists+bump+icon&tbm=isch) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/44 "2020-08-29T06:26:43Z")
It occurred to me that crossed fists had been used as a somewhat political symbol in _Black Panther_ (2018) and, afterwords, in real life. Unfortunately, when I looked it up, I learned that Chadwick Boseman died yesterday. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/45 "2020-08-29T13:35:39Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > The same symbol can have two different meanings. But your evidence that it is an ancient symbol of aggression or dominance is woefully lacking. Let’s start with that. Can you find any evidence in recorded history of its use in that manner before the 1800s? If so, in what context? There are very few complex human gestures that are truly universal. Simple ones like nodding your head for “yes” and shaking your head for “no” aren’t universal, although they are quite common. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/46 "2020-08-29T13:56:30Z")
A fist can certainly be used to express aggression. But the way one does so is by putting the fist (and arm) in a position preparatory to a punch. Starting with the arm raised above the head is not an effective position for a punch. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/47 "2020-08-29T14:28:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I had self-expression in mind, not communication. You might clench your fist in anger or stress when nobody is around to see you, and I’m not talking about pretending like someone was there. Maybe shaking a little because you’re clenching so hard, compare with clenching of teeth or eyes. I wonder if this is a man/woman thing, or just natural variation, but I don’t believe I have EVER clenched my fist in anger. I have clenched my teeth in anger. I’ve also clenched my fists in pain. I used to fight with my brothers a lot as a kid. Rolling around on the floor, trying to hurt each other fighting, that is, not just arguing. But we never punched each other. I believe that HOW we fight is at least somewhat a learned behavior. (Well, once my little brother tried to punch me, but his arms were shorter than mine and I literally held him at arm’s length and laughed at him as he punched the air. Neither my other brother nor I ever punched when we fought, though.) > [@Ynnad](#): > > People are asking for evidence. The only evidence that I have right now is that I have personally observed modern humans on numerous occasions, albeit mentally-disabled persons, use the raised fist gesture as a way to communicate aggression and/or assert dominance. That’s a very interesting observation. I would have thought that it is more naturally a symbol of domination (I am making a strong symbol up high) than of aggression, because I would have expected an aggressive gesture to be more closely related to actually initiating violence. And hands-above-head is a bad starting place for an attack. > [@Chronos](#): > > A fist can certainly be used to express aggression. But the way one does so is by putting the fist (and arm) in a position preparatory to a punch. Starting with the arm raised above the head is not an effective position for a punch. That would have been my best guess, too. I feel like holding a fist in the air is like marching with guns pointed up – an expression of power, not of aggression. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/48 "2020-08-29T15:24:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s a very interesting observation. I would have thought that it is more naturally a symbol of domination (I am making a strong symbol up high) than of aggression, because I would have expected an aggressive gesture to be more closely related to actually initiating violence. And hands-above-head is a bad starting place for an attack. Which makes it sound more like nonverbal communication than an actual fighting stance. When I have seen that gesture used in that way it is usually the knuckles are usually pointed inward and the arms moving about both at the shoulder and elbows. The formal Black Power salute has the knuckles pointed forward and the arm is held still. So their is that difference. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/49 "2020-08-29T19:07:35Z")
Ever slammed your fist on a table? Or seen someone else do so? The fist comes before the slamming motion, almost like they have this fist and they need to get rid of it fast. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/50 "2020-08-29T19:39:08Z")
No and no. Is that something you’ve commonly seen? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/51 "2020-08-29T20:06:52Z")
Uh, yeah. On television too. Oh well. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/52 "2020-08-29T20:20:03Z")
I’ve probably seen it on TV. I’m also familiar with the trope of the guy punching the wall. Both fall into the realm of “traditional depictions of emotion in fiction”, from my perspective. I have never seen anyone do either of those in real life, nor have I ever felt the urge to do so. I honestly believe it is a learned thing, and not innate. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/53 "2020-08-31T03:40:59Z")
At one point this discussion went off into the weeds over debate about what a caveman might do. I intended the question to focus on the actions and thoughts of modern humans. Therefore, as the OP, I ask that further discussion in this thread be about the following three questions: (1) Is the raised, closed fist an effective political symbol? (2) In a non-political context, can a closed fist be used as a nonverbal way to communicate anger, aggression, **or** dominance? (3) If the answer to both question (1) and question (2) are in the affirmative, do one or more meanings of the closed fist described in question (2) **contribute** to the effectiveness of the of the political symbol of a raised, closed fist. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/54 "2020-08-31T03:43:41Z")
1. I don’t know, and am not qualified to judge. 2. Yes, but usually that’s done by holding it in front and moving it (shaking the fist, or punching the air) not holding a close fist above one’s head. 3. see (1) ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/55 "2020-08-31T03:58:55Z")
Not too long ago, I saw a uniformed police officer speaking with (I was going to say harassing, but let’s not be inflammatory.) a homeless man. It was clear that the homeless man was trying very hard to de-escalate the situation. As he was speaking, the police officer removed a black, leather glove from his Batman belt. He placed it on his right hand, formed a fist with his right hand, and then began rubbing the knuckles of the fist back and forth in a circular motion in the open palm of his ungloved left hand. I left at that point so as to not get involved in any way so I don’t know what happened next. Do you think the police officer was trying to nonverbally communicate with the homeless man. Does anyone want to speculate on what the police officer was trying to communicate. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/56 "2020-08-31T06:20:01Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > Does anyone want to speculate on what the police officer was trying to communicate. I would have to see the officer and his/her actions to judge. I can’t speculate on the intentions of a person in a story. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/57 "2020-09-02T18:12:59Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > When some ancient cave man used the symbol, If you think it is an ancient symbol, you should be able to find ancient examples in art. _Open_ hands are a common enough symbol. Show me the fists. And specifically, the **fist held upright with the palm side facing the viewer** , not the knuckle side. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/58 "2020-09-02T18:17:29Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I doubt you will find much farther back than that except by coincidence. For example, apparently the Museum of Egyptian Antiquities in Cairo has [two statues](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kairo_Museum_Stele_Ramses_I._Horus_Seth_02.jpg) which appear to show Horus and Seth kneeling down on their right knees, their right arms extended straight out to the side and bent at a ninety-degree angle, right hands clenched into a fist with palms facing forward, and left hands clenched into a fist with palms against their stomachs. I think they’re possibly meant to be holding things, as Egyptian mythological figures often do. You can see where something’s broken off in the one left hand, even. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/59 "2020-09-02T18:21:45Z")
It’s certainly possible, and I see that little nub you mention. I can’t tell with any level of certainty from this angle. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/60 "2020-09-03T17:11:26Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > (1) Is the raised, closed fist an effective political symbol? > > (2) In a non-political context, can a closed fist be used as a nonverbal way to communicate anger, aggression, **or** dominance? > > (3) If the answer to both question (1) and question (2) are in the affirmative, do one or more meanings of the closed fist described in question (2) **contribute** to the effectiveness of the of the political symbol of a raised, closed fist. 1. Yes. It was intended to raise awareness and make a statement and it did that in spades. I had never seen the gesture but its meaning was immediately evident to me. And to pretty much everyone else, or it wouldn’t have aroused such furor. 2. A **cocked** fist can certainly be used that as a previous poster mentioned, but a raised fist? Not to me. Context is all. In the right context (e.g. you have just won a game) it could even be a substitute V sign. 3. So no, not to me. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245/61 "2020-09-03T17:39:17Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > - A **cocked** fist can certainly be used that as a previous poster mentioned, but a raised fist? Not to me. Context is all. In the right context (e.g. you have just won a game) it could even be a substitute V sign. Yeah, when I do it myself, it says “victory!” or “success” to me, not “attack” or “anger”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-raised-fist-as-a-political-symbol/919245.md?page=2)