# The Rape of Nanking book. Was it a factual account? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231 "2011-09-05T04:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/1 "2011-09-05T04:33:05Z")
Read this book many years ago and the account of the Japanese occupation of Nanking was pretty horrifying. Later on I had heard that the lady that wrote it was pretty heavily discredited and ended upmkilling herself as a result. Things like japanese soldiers stabbing babies with bayonets and throwing them in boiling pots of water while they still cried stick out to me. So what’s the SD? how much was true? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/2 "2011-09-05T05:01:07Z")
I don’t know specifically but Wikipedia has a [whole Criticism section](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Nanking_%28book%29#Criticism). But I don’t think anyone has suggested that she killed herself over a book. She had a mental illness and killed herself because of that. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/3 "2011-09-05T08:45:20Z")
Going mostly from memory: The book was not well-regarded by academics or specialists on the topic. Chang wasn’t a historian, didn’t know Chinese or Japanese, had an amateurish grasp of the event’s historical context, and wasn’t familiar with up-to-date scholarship (in fact, IIRC, she based the book primarily on a single, discredited source). These factors led to a book riddled with factual errors and pop psychological analysis. But that’s mostly big picture stuff. Regarding your question, about specific atrocities? A lot of that stuff was accurate. I believe the bit about the competition between two officers to behead 100 Chinese likely never happened, but there’s no doubt that horrific acts occurred. Scholarly debate on the massacre focus on it’s scale and causes, not the details like that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/4 "2011-09-05T14:10:04Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Read this book many years ago and the account of the Japanese occupation of Nanking was pretty horrifying. Later on I had heard that the lady that wrote it was pretty heavily discredited and ended upmkilling herself as a result. Things like japanese soldiers stabbing babies with bayonets and throwing them in boiling pots of water while they still cried stick out to me. > > So what’s the SD? how much was true? My understanding is that most of the criticism directed at Chang was over her interpretation of events not over factual issues. Historians seem to agree with her on what happened but some disagree with her on why it happened: was it because of something distinctive in Japanese society or due to a more general attribute present in all societies? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/5 "2011-09-05T14:22:40Z")
It’s not as if this is the only book on the topic (I read it years ago, but didn’t know about the controversy). Decades earlier I had read David Bergamini’s _Japan’s Imperial Conspiracy_ devotes its opening section to the Rape of Nanking. It’s well footnoted and references. > **[Japan's Imperial Conspiracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%27s_Imperial_Conspiracy)** > > Japan's Imperial Conspiracy is a nonfiction historical work by David Bergamini. Its subject is the role of Japanese elites in promoting Japanese imperialism and the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere; in particular, it examines the role of Crown Prince and Emperor Hirohito in the execution of Japan's Imperial conquest, and his role in postwar Japanese society. > According to Charles David Sheldon, this book: > According to historian Richard Storry, "A check of Mr. Bergamini's references reveals... ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/6 "2011-09-05T15:25:11Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s not as if this is the only book on the topic (I read it years ago, but didn’t know about the controversy). Decades earlier I had read David Bergamini’s _Japan’s Imperial Conspiracy_ devotes its opening section to the Rape of Nanking. It’s well footnoted and references. > > [Japan's Imperial Conspiracy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%27s_Imperial_Conspiracy) There are lots of good books on the massacre, but I don’t know that I’d go to a 40-year book for it, especially when the author’s “conclusions have not generally been accepted and his data and sources have been questioned.” ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/7 "2011-09-05T18:22:53Z")
C-Span recently re-aired an interview she did with Brian Lamb. Based on the date stamp, it was mere weeks before her suicide. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/8 "2011-09-05T18:38:06Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > There are lots of good books on the massacre, but I don’t know that I’d go to a 40-year book for it, especially when the author’s “conclusions have not generally been accepted and his data and sources have been questioned.” I’m not suggesting that you do. I;'m just saying that I read it when it came out, so the OP’s book was no surprise to me. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/9 "2011-09-05T18:53:57Z")
Japanese atrocities were all to real. The British were unable to defend Singapore. The Japanese gave it the same treatment as Nanking. A lot of British women were raped along with Chinese. > [@](#): > > The Kempeitai (Japanese military secret police) committed numerous atrocities against the common people. They introduced the system of “Sook Ching”, which means “purge through purification”, to get rid of those deemed as anti-Japanese. The Sook Ching Massacre claimed the lives of between 25,000 and 50,000 ethnic Chinese in Singapore and Malaya. These men were rounded up and taken to deserted spots around the island and killed systematically. > **[Japanese occupation of Singapore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_occupation_of_Singapore)** > > Syonan (Japanese: 昭南, Hepburn: Shōnan; Kunrei-shiki: Syônan),\[nb 2\] officially Syonan Island (Japanese: 昭南島, Hepburn: Shōnan-tō; Kunrei-shiki: Syônan-tô), was the name for Singapore when it was occupied and ruled by the Empire of Japan, following the fall and surrender of British military forces on 15 February 1942, 6:20 p.m. local time, during World War II. > The Japanese military forces occupied Singapore after defeating the combined British, Indian, Australian, Malayan and the Straits Settlem... Rape fantasy videos & interactive games are popular porn in Japan. They have some very bizarre fantasy porn. The rape & submission material is the most troubling. [Japanese Rape Fantasy Video Games Under Fire, Calls To Ban Them (VIDEO) | HuffPost The World Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/30/japanese-rape-fantasy-vid_n_518891.html) ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/10 "2011-09-05T19:48:49Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Rape fantasy videos & interactive games are popular porn in Japan. They have some very bizarre fantasy porn. The rape & submission material is the most troubling. > [Japanese Rape Fantasy Video Games Under Fire, Calls To Ban Them (VIDEO) | HuffPost The World Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/30/japanese-rape-fantasy-vid_n_518891.html) “Most troubling Japanese porn” is a title I’d bestow with great caution. There are just too many contenders. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/11 "2011-09-05T20:40:26Z")
I’m less skeptical of the actual killing than I am of the horror movie style of it all in the book. Like the example I gave earlier. I’m sure the Japanese killed the people, I just don’t know about the method of killing. ---
**Author:** ![blood63](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@blood63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blood63)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/12 "2011-09-05T20:53:15Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I’m less skeptical of the actual killing than I am of the horror movie style of it all in the book. Like the example I gave earlier. I’m sure the Japanese killed the people, I just don’t know about the method of killing. If you are at all skeptical watch [this](http://http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-rape-of-nanking/) video which uses first hand accounts. The Chinese were brutally massacred, sometimes cut in half with swords, often in front of family members. It was hell on earth. It makes the nazis look humane. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/13 "2011-09-05T21:25:52Z")
There are quite a lot of eyewitness accounts, including filmed documentation of some of the atrocities, primarily from Western missionaries. I find it difficult to imagine any need to sensationalize what are some of the most stomach-churning atrocities of modern war. As \*\*blood63 \*\*said, Nanking made the Nazis look humane. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/14 "2011-09-06T04:51:21Z")
Iris Chang wrote a sensationalist book that vastly over exaggerated the Rape of Nanking. Now, let me state categorically that the Rape of Nanking occured, and it was very bad. I took my mother, who remembered the newsreels and reports of the Rape of Nanking when it occured, to the memorial around 2002. The memorial has a partially excavated mass grave with human bones sticking out. The momorial also has photos, victim and eye witness accounts. Hence, no need for cheap sensationalism. Iris Chang, who didn’t really speak Chinese nor was any kind of academic/historian, did a huge disservice of blowing out of proportion the events that transpired. Japanese “nationalists” were able to pick apart different aspects of the book and did their best to discredit the entire book and actually point to the inaccuracies to “prove” that the Rape of Nanking never occured. Acclaimed Sinologist Simon Leys addresses the Rape of Nanking very well in one of his books. IIRC it was Chinese Shadows. This was pre-internet days so you won’t find it on line (or if you do please post a link). He posited, with evidence, that the Rape of Nanking was inflated for propoganda purposes by both the Communists and the Nationalists. If you actually review the Nationalists accounts at the time it was an order of magnitude less than Iris Chang’s “version.” Let’s not go down which atrocity was worse, the Nazis or Nanking. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/15 "2011-09-06T04:54:29Z")
> [@blood63](#): > > If you are at all skeptical watch [this](http://http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-rape-of-nanking/) video which uses first hand accounts. The Chinese were brutally massacred, sometimes cut in half with swords, often in front of family members. It was hell on earth. Link isn’t working for me. Anyone else have this problem? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/16 "2011-09-06T06:47:47Z")
> [@blood63](#): > > The Chinese were brutally massacred, sometimes cut in half with swords, often in front of family members. It was hell on earth. It makes the nazis look humane. underlining mine. So do a lot of the details about Unit 731. The Japanese have a brutal 20th century war history. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/17 "2011-09-06T07:26:01Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > C-Span recently re-aired an interview she did with Brian Lamb. Based on the date stamp, it was mere weeks before her suicide. It was evidently 7 YEARS before she took her own life. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/18 "2011-09-06T13:38:17Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > …I believe the bit about the competition between two officers to behead 100 Chinese likely never happened, but there’s no doubt that horrific acts occurred… More about that: [Hundred man killing contest - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_kill_100_people_using_a_sword) I knew a survivor of the Bataan Death March, and have read a lot about World War II in the Pacific. I have a rebuttable presumption that any halfway-credible tale of Japanese brutality is probably true. On the other hand, my family had a wonderful Japanese exchange student in the early 1970s, born well after 1945, and it pained us to see her snubbed by those with long memories of the war. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/19 "2011-09-06T14:05:41Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Iris Chang wrote a sensationalist book that vastly over exaggerated the Rape of Nanking. Do you know of any survivor of Nanking who believes this? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231/20 "2011-09-06T18:33:24Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > Do you know of any survivor of Nanking who believes this? Well, yes, actually I do. They don’t want this forgotten nor do they want it fictionalized. It was a nasty brutal time within the nasty brutal Sino-Japanese war. I hope I’m not being misconstrued. Iris Chang sensationalized an atrocity that needed no sensationalization. It’s undisputable that tens of thousands of Chinese died in the immediate aftermath of Nanking. Records of the KMT, Communists, foreign observers, etc all more or less agree. Iris exaggerated, took hearsay as fact, redefined the Rape of Nanking to span all direct, indirect and potentially indirect vitims and did anything she could to make it hundreds of thousands of dead. This makes it easy for the Rape of Nanking deniers/ultranationalists in Japan to pick her most outrageous and probably fictional claims, debunk them, and by extension make the case the Rape of Nanking never happend. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rape-of-nanking-book-was-it-a-factual-account/595231.md?page=2)