The rational of (modern) war

Andros,

The States might have been pulled out of the Depression by the time they joined the War, but I remind you that the War started 2 years later for the States as well. During the 2 years of American “isolationism”, there were few Allied countries that the US didn’t support by providing guns, tanks, planes, boats, and even men, in Lend/Lease deals. Even if they weren’t fighting a war between '39 and '41, they were in a state of high war production.

No shame in it: the Germans (under Hitler’s direction) had been engaged in a similar program of re-armament and infrastructure building, like the Autobahn project and his entire submarine fleet. It hauled Germany out of the gutters of over 10 years of Depression by about 1936.

In any case, I don’t know if I’d deem WW2 a “modern” war anymore. I guess I’m a victim of post-modernity.

Regards,

Jai Pey

“War is good business: Invest your son”

I think you’re forgetting nuclear weapons here. Post WWII, just the Cold War was good for business…anything more elevated than minor military incursions were just suicidal. Of course, minor military incursions means a first world country beating the piss out of an undermanned, under trained fraction of a nation.

As an aside, I don’t think we lost the war with Vietnam. The whole idea was to put into practice Kennedy’s ‘We will go to extraordinary lengths to keep another inch of free-democratic soil’ view. After 9 or so years of US involvement, draft riots, the indiscriminate dropping of Agent Orange and Napalm I think we got our point across. America’s public opinion has always been fragile when it comes to its body count. We have a ‘glass-jaw’ as far as Nations are concerned. I don’t know the exact figure but tough as the viet-cong were the kill ratio was around 10 to 1 favoring the Americans. Add to this, I don’t think it was ever our intention to become friendly with Vietnam…it was just the stage for our little play.

Occam just posted:

I have to say something to this first… COME ON. Call it “strategic withdrawal” and quote 10-1 kill ratios, the States still left Veit Nam in one hell of a hurry and I strongly doubt they proved any point at all in 9 years of fighting except that it was all for nothing. 10-1 kill ratio? I’d like to see what the population of North Vietnam was, as well as its standing army, to compare to the States at that same time… and then I ask you, with such overwhelmingly superior kill numbers on their side, why didn’t they wipe every last one of 'em out? Because no matter how much the States hurt (or got hurt) they couldn’t find 'em all, let alone kill 'em.

Exactly what point did the States get across? And to whom? If it was all an exercise in American public opinion, backing up Jack Kennedy’s promise, it certainly didn’t work! If they were trying to teach North Veit Nam something, it was “How about that! Only 9 years of struggle and we’ve still won!” The one thing I can attest to “seeing” as a real effect of this war is polarized opinion to this day, mostly within americans! Either you all (a) ought not to have been there, or (b)really won but god-damn it why won’t anyone see that?

Occam, I really don’t follow calling any war/police action in which you’re evacuating the last troops from your HQ at the same time as the enemy is occupying the city a “victory”.

But back to the point, I agree entirely with your first point… Nuclear war has changed things…

Damn straight. Big spending keeping up with the Boshie’s, so to speak. But…

Well, I disagree here… Because Nukes aren’t viable strike weapons, as any big time 1st world nation will tell you. They threaten, but to use them is ultimately a losing proposition. Threat of use = power. In terms of actually getting something done, you still have to commit troops, or train troops to be commited. Example, the Bay of Pigs invasion into Cuba. It sparked off the threat of nuclear war, but no nukes were used to repel the invaders.

Or a 1st world country thinking it can do it. Whether or not they CAN remains to be seen. I think I saw it happen in the Gulf War, but considering Saddam’s antics in the past 2 years I’m starting to wonder.

Nukes are a part of modern “total” war, but they’re not used in fighting… always conventional battles and I’ll be surprised if we ever live to see a nuclear exchange. On the other hand, the number of “modern” militaries that have tackled inferior forces and have either been repelled or were forced to repeat their action (I cite the States in Iraq, Russia in Chechnya, UUSR in Afghanistan) is staggering. I’m more afraid of local warlord-led armies taking over the West than having to “duck and cover”.

Anyhoo… I’m open for fire now.

Sincerely, best regards,

Jai Pey

Jai Pey,

All right, you have a point but so do I…lets see if I can explain it better.

“I have to say something to this first… COME ON. Call it “strategic withdrawal” and quote 10-1 kill ratios, the States still left Veit Nam in one hell of a hurry”

The US went in when South Vietnam had an army of it’s own. By the time we decided to leave we were alone.
"and then I ask you, with such overwhelmingly superior kill numbers on their side, why didn’t they wipe every last one of 'em out? Because no matter how much the States hurt (or got hurt) they couldn’t find 'em all, let alone kill 'em.
You don’t need to find 'em when you can bombard acres from firebases miles away. The strength in the Vietnamese was not necessarily their guerilla tactics so much as their willingness to fight under any circumstances. They fought the French, Japanese and us for what?..50-60 years?. If there is anything we underestimated it was their resolve.
“Exactly what point did the States get across? And to whom? If it was all an exercise in American public opinion, backing up Jack Kennedy’s promise, it certainly didn’t work!”

Didn’t it? Communism spread to about 1/3 of the world population and about 1/4 of the world’s land. After 1970 how many countries followed Marx?
“If they were trying to teach North Veit Nam something, it was “How about that! Only 9 years of struggle and we’ve still won!””

No, what we got across was, “Ok, now that you’ve decided to form a one system workers political party we’re going to lay a world of hurt on you.”

"“anything more elevated than minor military incursions were just suicidal.”

Well, I disagree here… Because Nukes aren’t viable strike weapons, as any big time 1st world nation will tell you. They threaten, but to use them is ultimately a losing proposition."

Yeah, like I said, BECAUSE OF NUKES anything more elevated than minor military incursions were just suicidal.
“Example, the Bay of Pigs invasion into Cuba. It sparked off the threat of nuclear war, but
no nukes were used to repel the invaders.”

Yeah, I think we can put the Bay of Pigs ‘invasion’ under the ‘minor military incursions’ category. The only backup we sent our forces were outdated prop planes as an attempt by the CIA to make the world think this wasn’t orchestrated by us.

“Or a 1st world country thinking it can do it. Whether or not they CAN remains to be seen. I think I saw it happen in the Gulf War, but considering Saddam’s antics in the past 2 years I’m starting to wonder.”

It’s time for your reality check here. In case you haven’t noticed the US and the UN have ALLOWED Saddam to stay in power. Why I don’t know, but are you going to dispute the fact that his ass wasn’t on the ropes in Baghdad?
“Nukes are a part of modern “total” war, but they’re not used in fighting… always conventional battles and I’ll be surprised if we ever live to see a nuclear exchange.”

Yeah, Margaret Thatcher loved Nukes because they made all out war between powerful nations too risky to undertake.
“On the other hand, the number of “modern” militaries that have tackled inferior forces and have either been repelled or were forced to repeat their action (I cite the States in Iraq,”

How long did it take for the US to drop Iraq like a bad habit? How many US casualties were there?..like 10, and they were from friendly fire.
“Russia in Chechnya,UUSR in Afghanistan”

Now you’re getting into the power of resolve in war. Make no mistake the couple of Stinger missiles the CIA sent the Afghanis were never a match for the Hind gun ships. It was their willingness to fight at any cost for any length of time with a country that could not afford the human costs and the time that won it.
“I’m more afraid of local warlord-led armies taking over the West than having to “duck and cover”.”

Well I’m more afraid of local warlord’s making a “duck and cover” necessary.
{{disclaimer}- the numbers presented in this post are unsubstantiated. They are based on conservative estimates that I remember from some teacher who told a friend a long time ago. The real numbers would be appreciated.}

I don’t think this rationale holds up for truly ‘modern’ war…it was true for the U.S. during WWII; that’s for sure.
Besides, war on a scale large enough to aid a market boost nowadays would be fought with nuke bombs anyway - not guns and tanks.