Firstly, BiblioCat let me apologize if my previous post sounds harsh. The ungal crest is a part of the third phalanx. If the ungal crest is left behind, a nail will regrow. If the ungal crest is removed, then no regrowth will occur, however bone has been removed by definition.
As a veterinarian I can put spin on what I tell a client. If I just spent 15K on a laser I would (I guess) put a positive spin on laser declaws because declawing is just about the only use of a surgical laser in veterinary medicine.
And a shout out to Boldface Type. I knew a Brit would be along to get my back. Interestingly BFT, the Patronek cite you provide was part of a project designed to show that there were horrible effects (behaviour wise) post declaw. I knew one of the researchers. When the work was done and no negative effect could be shown, there was internal dissent regarding publication.
I have no real problem with declawing as long as everything is honest and above board. Hell, I do the surgery (as infrequently as possible). Basically, laser onychectomy offers less post operative pain. BUT pain relief postop can be achieved with various narcotics. And it is a major surgery that anecdotally is tied to an increase in bites and litter box problems.
When my mom let my brother and I get kittens 18 years ago they were both declawed (front only) at the same time they were fixed. We knew they were going to be strictly indoor cats, and there was no controversy or anything (that my 15-year-old self was aware of). Both procedures were almost givens. I can still remember “my” kitten staying on my bed for a few days in a row, being miserable in a general sort of way, but recuperating fairly quickly.
I don’t know what goes on in the UK, but my cat’s toes were not removed! My cat walked, ran, and jumped normally for 18 years, and seemed to be unaware of the fact that she had no claws: she still “sharpened” them on the edges of furniture, and swiped with her front paws when annoyed. It was a big sign of trust when she started letting me rub her belly, but in my opinion it was an ever bigger sign of trust when she started letting me handle her paws (front and back). She was seen by several vets in her lifetime, and not one of them ever said anything like “what happened to her paws?”
The thing with your cat flexing its claws when happy? My cat did that, too: I’ve always heard it called kneading, and is indeed quite endearing. The lack of claws did not prevent my cat from kneading, it just prevented the kneading from hurting me or my furniture.
Your claim of barbarism is not supported by any study or fact, as you admit yourself. In fact, one of your claims (the litterbox thing) is contradicted by a study that you cite! The only “objective” statement you made was in regards to a declawed cat that gets outside. This has already been covered, and I don’t think you’ll find any animal lover who believes that declawing anything but an indoor-only cat is a good idea.
Finally, regarding your statment that “if you need to unnecessarily remove bits of your pet to tailor it to your lifestyle, then perhaps a goldfish would be a better pet for you:” do you feel that way about having a pet fixed/neutered, as well?
This is tangental but I wasn’t aware we had vets posting on this board.
Do you guys think it is easier for you to lose a patient than a doctor who treats humans? Or do you feel sadness eventhough your patient is a dog et cetra.
Do small pets like hamsters et cetra mean a bit less?
I’ve just always wondered.
I always loved biology, and took all the required courses to gain admissions to medical schools in college (leaving my options open, as I was wont to do then) but ultimately I felt I didn’t want to deal with the human aspect. Having to be responsible for another human’s life felt more than I wanted to deal with.
The same folks who insist that you pledge NOT to declaw your kitten, also ask that you promise to neuter the animal. (?).
We had our latest totally indoor cat front-declawed at a young age, recovery was less than a day. No signs of any distress. It is really nice not to have a house full of shredded furniture.
Martin, if you’re interested in finding out more about being a vet, you really ought to open a thread in IMHO or MPISMS. Three points, though: Admissions for vet school are generally a lot more competitive than for med school, vet medicine is often as much about the owner as it is the animal, and any vet who considers his patient as “just a dog” is a crappy vet.
You will get very different answers depending on which veterinarians you ask. Many of my friends are veterinarians. Some hunt, others are rabid anti-hunting. Some have excellent bedside manners while others are scientists forced to interact with people on a daily basis.
Interestingly, the worst veterinarian I’ve ever known had a great personality and interacted with each pet. He had a thriving practice; people loved him but he was useless medically.
Seems remarkable that they did not receive any pain meds for what is an amputation. Some findings from Tobias (1994) are cited here, notably that 50% of cats had complications immediately after surgery, including pain, lameness, swelling, etc. Also, as vetbridge has pointed out, your cats cannot still have their entire toe (also see laser declaw ).
If they healed properly, then their paws probably don’t hurt. I suppose they could experience phantom limb pain. Not easy to test though!
Well, nothing goes on in the UK regarding declaw!
Anyway, see reply above. Unless there’s some procedure I’m unaware of, the final joint of your cat’s toes is necessarily removed. Vetbridge - who is a vet, natch - confirms this.
I’m speaking of something a bit different (in fact, the cat that flexes his claws does not knead much, if at all) - for example, I pick the cat up, and he’ll purr and flex his claws in and out. If I place a finger in the middle of his paw pads when he’s doing this, he basically grabs and releases my finger with his claws.
Unnecessary surgery that at best causes short term discomfort, and at worst causes the cat to be killed later, is barbaric. IMO. I suppose one could argue that unnecessary surgery that confers no benefit on the animal is not barbaric, but I think it would need some Special Friday Logic. The AVMA agrees that declawing should be avoided, stating ‘Declawing of domestic cats should be considered only after attempts have been made to prevent the cat from using its claws destructively or when its clawing presents a zoonotic risk for its owner(s).’
Their full statement on declawing also contains the following:
’ 1. Scratching is a normal feline behavior (…)
2. Owners must provide implements for normal scratching behavior (…)
3. Appropriate claw care should be provided (…)
4. Surgical declawing is not a necessary procedure for the cat in most cases… there are inherent risks … including … hemorrage, infection and pain. (…)’
No, for the following reasons.
First, neutering cats can confer health benefits on them. For example, intact, female cats can develop pyometria. Neutered females cannot. Neutered females also have reduced risk of mammary tumours. Neutered males are much less likely to spray, and a pet cat that sprays is likely to be out on his ear, pronto. Unlike clawing behaviour, it’s not really possible to teach a tomcat to spray ‘appropriately’! Neutered males are also much less likely to wander large distances and get squashed under the wheels of a distant truck (e.g., see Childs & Ross, 1986; Am J Vet Res 47: 1643-1648). This last point is an issue for indoor-outdoor cats.
Second, unneutered cats that go outside will contribute to the vast stray cat population. And unneutered cats will really want to go outside from time to time!
Also, neutering is a fairly minor procedure for male cats, if not for females.
Interesting! The cats had their claws removed, but the researchers had theirs out and in action on each other…
The significance of the AVMA statement probably is lost on most readers. The AVMA is very conservative and would hesitate to come out against anything that a veterinarian could make money with.
Also, by way of a cite…here are pictures showing a “laser declaw”. The entirety of P3 (the distal phalynx) is shown being removed.
Yes. I suppose one could do some sorta partial ostectomy, however that would lead to incredible bad sequelae.
I think that when a veterinarian claims his/her laser declaw does not remove bone, what they mean is that there is no inadvertent removal of P2. It is common in poorly done non-laser declaws to have some damage to P2.
(Looking at your hand, P1 is the first finger bone, P2 is the second, and P3 the third or distal finger bone where the nail is attached.)
Interestingly BFT, the Patronek cite you provide was part of a project designed to show that there were horrible effects (behaviour wise) post declaw. I knew one of the researchers. When the work was done and no negative effect could be shown, there was internal dissent regarding publication.