# The REAL problem of the US. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124 "2011-05-08T03:13:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/21 "2011-05-08T04:56:15Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m not allowed to cite my father, who is older than I am, is a distinguished combat veteran from Desert Storm, and is far wiser than I? I don’t mean to belittle your father’s service, but there was little combat there, only 147 casualties in [Desert Storm](http://www.historycentral.com/desert_storm/Casualties.html) and 100 hours of actual ground engagement. I’m sure it was horrific but my father, a decorated combat vet from WW 2 Pacific Theater and was on the front lines in Korea when the Chinese entered the war, would take this claim with a grain of salt. Be that as it may, not sure what relevance your father’s combat service has to your premise. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/22 "2011-05-08T05:00:19Z")
Now we flip the coin to the rich side. Let’s assume that I am making about $500,000 a year. I have 3 classic muscle cars and an old tow truck, a truck for hauling a 16’ fiberglass cruise boat, and a camper that fits in the truck’s bed. I own a house that is a one story brick house, with a lovely wife and three kids, all of them getting ready to start lives of their own. I work in the afternoon to 3 in the morning, Monday through Friday. Now let’s see what kind of bad choice I can make. I can purchase another muscle car. Do I really need it? No. The money could have gone toward a house payment, which is $10,000 month. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/23 "2011-05-08T05:04:36Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > You do make an excellent point, but still, people, both rich and poor, are making bad decisions. For example, let us assume that I am currently drawing from welfare, I am in good enough health to work, but have not been actively looking for a job in months. My check comes in, and I’ve been saving up most of my paychecks not to buy food or medicine or clothes, but instead I’ve been saving up to buy a copy of Portal 2 for XBox 360. Did I really need that? No. I just made a bad choice. Now a better choice would have been to use that money to pay of some of my utility bills. Now assuming that I keep up this pattern of procrastination, am I doing anyone any good, am I contributing in some manner by sitting and playing Black Ops all day? The poor and stupid choice you are suggesting is silly. Do you believe thats what the majority of poor people are doing? Welfare is a tough life. You are not sitting on cash to buy toys. You are mostly trying to keep up with rent and keep the lights and heat on. They buy phone cards when the phone gets shut off. They ran a program a week ago saying McDonalds would be hiring. Over 50,000 people applied. That sound like a lot of people who don’t want to work? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/24 "2011-05-08T05:04:45Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I am insulted. Are you satisfied that you have attempted to make me into some kind of moron? I seriously don’t think he was trying to make you into one. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/25 "2011-05-08T05:05:04Z")
Is your father planning on refusing Social Security? Or is he only against the federal assistance that’s being offered to other people? ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/26 "2011-05-08T05:05:28Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Now we flip the coin to the rich side. Let’s assume that I am making about $500,000 a year. I have 3 classic muscle cars and an old tow truck, a truck for hauling a 16’ fiberglass cruise boat, and a camper that fits in the truck’s bed. I own a house that is a one story brick house, with a lovely wife and three kids, all of them getting ready to start lives of their own. I work in the afternoon to 3 in the morning, Monday through Friday. Now let’s see what kind of bad choice I can make. I can purchase another muscle car. Do I really need it? No. The money could have gone toward a house payment, which is $10,000 month. I’m really not even sure what you’re asking… Um yeah, make the house payment if you’re taking in \> $40k per month??? ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/27 "2011-05-08T05:07:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The poor and stupid choice you are suggesting is silly. Do you believe thats what the majority of poor people are doing? > Welfare is a tough life. You are not sitting on cash to buy toys. You are mostly trying to keep up with rent and keep the lights and heat on. They buy phone cards when the phone gets shut off. > They ran a program a week ago saying McDonalds would be hiring. Over 50,000 people applied. That sound like a lot of people who don’t want to work? I’m just stating what I have seen happen in my little part of Redneckland, here in Ohio. People are making poor choices,and not paying for the essentials. Also, they breed quite frequently, and sometimes not with the same people… ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/28 "2011-05-08T05:09:52Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I am insulted. Are you satisfied that you have attempted to make me into some kind of moron? Some people, you just can’t reach, I guess. but since you _clearly_ are an expert, why don’t you break it down for me and show me what you imagine the REAL problem to be? I’ve got no cites and I’ve got no bones to pick, but at some point our elected representatives got the idea that the majority party should make all the rules. Meanwhile, the minority party _and_ majority party do nothing but try to stop each other from doing anything for fear it will “look bad” to their constituency if the opposition gets EVEN ONE THING that they want. They live in such fear of letting the opposition “win” that they’d rather let our nation rot rather than lift a finger to address the current crises. I’m less worried about handouts to the poor than I am about a crumbling infrastructure that’s been underfunded for decades. Parts of America resemble third-world countries (prosperous ones, mind you) with worn-out roads, bridges that need maintenance or replacement, and gas and oil facilities that occasionally explode. The agencies responsible for policing the entities which maintain them are dreadfully undermanned and underfunded. Where do _you_ propose getting the funds for paying our government’s debts? The rich have most of the money anyway, so why not tax them? Unless, of course you can figure out how to increase our GDP so revenues rise of their own accord (more-or-less and BTW if you **do** have such an idea, why won’t you share it with the rest of us?) What’s wrong with America is we’ve been loaning money to ourselves without regard for our eventual need to repay the loan. We have neglected to put anything aside in case something (maybe a huge recession? Like the one we’re in?) causes a drop in revenues. Everybody except Congress seems to understand that when you have financial obligations you have to raise the money to meet them. Not just by “trimming the fat”, but by increasing revenues by other means as well. You can’t just do one or the other and hope things will work out. Just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/29 "2011-05-08T05:11:03Z")
Do you actually know, anyone, personally,on welfare? The assumptions that you’re making a bizarre to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/30 "2011-05-08T05:15:50Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m not allowed to cite my father, who is older than I am, is a distinguished combat veteran from Desert Storm, and is far wiser than I? If you want to go with an [Appeal to Authority](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html) that’s up to you, but “my father” is not a good choice. How about those cites? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/31 "2011-05-08T05:18:22Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m not allowed to cite my father, who is older than I am, is a distinguished combat veteran from Desert Storm, and is far wiser than I? No, you are not allowed to cite your father (or to be precise if you cite your father no one will take you seriously), the reason being that it doesn’t meet the definition of a cite. A cite is a reliable, verifiable source for information. Particularly in politics where everything is public, you should be able to link to first-hand sources for information. You claim that the “The Dems want to increase taxes on the rich because ‘That money belongs to everyone!’” When exactly did the Democrats or any member thereof say these words or words to this effect? Nothing your father could say is relevant to this question. It’s a simple matter of you naming the place and time where it happened, preferably with a link. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/32 "2011-05-08T05:20:25Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Oh and here you are picking out all the little bits and pieces that offend you, but are factual, yet you refuse to see it. You aren’t going to comment about the right-wing stuff I find wrong? How biased of you. I am trying my best to have no bias toward any party here. Lolumadbro? Knock it off. You need to support your arguments with more facts than you’ve posted so far- and do it without comments like “Lolumadbro,” which call your sincerity into question. > [@septimus](#): > > Am I the only one to think that _The REAL problem of the US_ is that people at the level of OP imagine they have insight to offer? This is insulting and rude, and it’s not appropriate for this forum. Take it to the Pit if you need to post anything else like this. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/33 "2011-05-08T05:30:19Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > You do make an excellent point, but still, people, both rich and poor, are making bad decisions. For example, let us assume that I am currently drawing from welfare, I am in good enough health to work, but have not been actively looking for a job in months. My check comes in, and I’ve been saving up most of my paychecks not to buy food or medicine or clothes, but instead I’ve been saving up to buy a copy of Portal 2 for XBox 360. Did I really need that? No. I just made a bad choice. Now a better choice would have been to use that money to pay of some of my utility bills. Now assuming that I keep up this pattern of procrastination, am I doing anyone any good, am I contributing in some manner by sitting and playing Black Ops all day? Let’s assume for the moment that this fanciful scenario is common - which I seriously doubt. Hell, let’s say that people like this account for 50% of all welfare recipients: So what? The other more deserving 50% may be in dire need of assistance, and it could mean the world to them. I’d then encourage efforts for changing the behavior of your XBox playing layabouts, and those that couldn’t be motivated are then the cost of doing business. Among those who find public assistance unpalatable I sense an extreme dislike for the idea that somebody, somewhere is getting away with something they shouldn’t. Well, tough. You do what you can to mitigate that sort of thing. Then you recognize that it’s not worth scrapping or gutting a system that, although imperfect, does meaningful and important good in the world. I have no problem with my tax money going to assist others, even if some of it inevitably finds its way to unsavory people now and again. And I suspect the percentage of those sort of folks is waaaaaaay lower than you might think. ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/34 "2011-05-08T05:31:31Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > You do make an excellent point, but still, people, both rich and poor, are making bad decisions. For example, let us assume that I am currently drawing from welfare, I am in good enough health to work, but have not been actively looking for a job in months. My check comes in, and I’ve been saving up most of my paychecks not to buy food or medicine or clothes, but instead I’ve been saving up to buy a copy of Portal 2 for XBox 360. Did I really need that? No. I just made a bad choice. Now a better choice would have been to use that money to pay of some of my utility bills. Now assuming that I keep up this pattern of procrastination, am I doing anyone any good, am I contributing in some manner by sitting and playing Black Ops all day? Arguably yes. There are fewer jobs out there than people, and if you can find true happiness in a jobless lifestyle, you’re helping out all the people who are job hunting by not competing against them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124/35 "2011-05-08T05:33:41Z")
I am not going to send this thread to the BBQ Pit, but there is really too little focus in the OP to generate a serious debate. **humanafterall** , if you want to tighten up the points in the OP and come up with a better defined topic to debate, you are welcome to try it again in Great Debates. (Or,I can move it to The BBQ Pit if you prefer.) As it stands, this thread is already well on its way to being little more than a series of broadsides of class warfare with significantly more emotion, (_and far too many personal remarks_), than thought behind most of the posts, so I am going to close it. Closed. [/Moderating] - > [@humanafterall](#): > > I’m not allowed to cite my father, who is older than I am, is a distinguished combat veteran from Desert Storm, and is far wiser than I? I have a lot of respect for the kids who participated in Desert Storm, but they are too young for me to take seriously in regards to life issues. \* 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-of-the-us/581124.md?page=1)