# The real problem with gay people is simply a lack of neighborliness ... and niceness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892 "2014-03-05T01:55:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/41 "2014-03-06T17:34:13Z")
On his podcast, Penn Jillette suggested that anyone who doesn’t want to serve gays, atheists, etc. put up a sign in their window. The suggested design is a cross within a crown of thorns. Then, people who only want to patronize establishments where the owners think the same as they do can, and those who do not want “bigot cake” can avoid them. It’s not a bad idea, really. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/42 "2014-03-06T17:38:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But gay couples can still take their business to whoever gives them the warmest welcome. And of course if they’re choosing between two photographers and one has a portfolio full of great pictures of same-sex couples and the other seems to have taken only mediocre photos of the same couples, I know who they’re going to hire. But what about those first mediocre photo same sex victims? Sure, eventually word will get around, but for something as expensive, important, and one-time as wedding photos, I’d want to know up front that the guy isn’t going to give it his all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/43 "2014-03-06T17:45:13Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > But what about those first mediocre photo same sex victims? Sure, eventually word will get around, but for something as expensive, important, and one-time as wedding photos, I’d want to know up front that the guy isn’t going to give it his all. That’s why you talk to the photographer before you book him. Someone who shows actual support and enthusiasm for same-sex couples is more likely to get the job than someone who doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/44 "2014-03-06T17:53:08Z")
So without the law, a photographer can just say “I’m sorry, I don’t photograph same sex weddings.” With the law, he can’t say that, but can hem and haw and try to let the couple know he’s not the photographer for them without coming out and saying so, but its up to the couple to figure out that’s what he means? And you think that’s better? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/45 "2014-03-06T17:59:14Z")
Missed the edit window: I realize the above makes it sounds like I’m opposed to equal protection & access under the law, and I’m not. But I’m just trying to point out that it’s not necessarily as clear-cut as it seems, and having an unambiguous way to identify someone who doesn’t want your business isn’t a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/46 "2014-03-06T18:00:49Z")
I’m not talking about hemming and hawing. I’m saying people who really want to support same-sex couples will make that clear, and those who don’t will fail to do so and the market will handle the rest. It’s an improvement because the most likely outcome is that these people will follow the money and choose to do the jobs they’re paid to do instead of pissing and moaning or doing a bad job on purpose. Your sexual orientation shouldn’t affect your ability to hire a photographer or get a cake any more than your race, religion, age, or gender should. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/47 "2014-03-06T18:02:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Unneighborly is refusing to serve a legitimate customer, in direct violation of their civil rights. > > I’m thrilled that these customers will not simply “go away” when bigots decide to violate their rights. Bullshit. Each party is free in our capitalist system. This is a private contract, and both parties have to agree or there is no contract. If you choose to go to one store and not another, can the store that you choose \*not \*to patronize sue you? NO! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/48 "2014-03-06T18:02:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Chick-fil-A doesn’t turn down gay customers. Still, in a sense that’s a good example here: they don’t refuse to serve anybody, but their views are well-known and consumers can act accordingly (eating their more often if they’re retrograde dicks or simply don’t care, and taking their business elsewhere if they disagree with the company’s views). I have not eaten there since they made their position known, but it has been kind of hard as their chicken sandwiches are _so_ good. > [@Indyellen](#): > > On his podcast, Penn Jillette suggested that anyone who doesn’t want to serve gays, atheists, etc. put up a sign in their window. The suggested design is a cross within a crown of thorns. Then, people who only want to patronize establishments where the owners think the same as they do can, and those who do not want “bigot cake” can avoid them. > > It’s not a bad idea, really. If a stubborn person wanted to patronise them anyway, does Penn think the government should compel them to? My guess is that his libertarian views lead him to say “no”. We recently got a law passed in my city banning discrimination based on sexual orientation. It was a huge, controversial battle involving waffling City Council members and all kinds of intrigue with masses of citizenry speaking out on both sides. There were a number of businesses that spoke out against the law, and I suggested on Facebook that those of us who supported gay rights should not forget who was against us. This was a controversial position within the movement as some wanted to focus more on staying positive rather than “blackballing” anyone. Ultimately the compromise that emerged was to make up a sticker that businesses could post in their windows as a symbol of their support for our cause. In conjunction with this, the Facebook page keeps a list of businesses that are supportive to share with people new to the community (this will be especially relevant to college students). So, no “blackball list”, but certain places are hopefully conspicuous by their absence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/49 "2014-03-06T18:03:36Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Bullshit. Each party is free in our capitalist system. A quick glance at any number of laws would tell you that this is wrong. We don’t have a pure capitalist system, and thank goodness for that. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/50 "2014-03-06T18:03:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not talking about hemming and hawing. I’m saying people who really want to support same-sex couples will make that clear, and those who don’t will fail to do so and the market will handle the rest. It’s an improvement because the most likely outcome is that these people will follow the money and choose to do the jobs they’re paid to do instead of pissing and moaning or doing a bad job on purpose. Your sexual orientation shouldn’t affect your ability to hire a photographer or get a cake any more than your race, religion, age, or gender should. Utter nonsense! It’s a matter of free choice. If I don’t like the way a store looks or smells, or the prices, I can go elsewhere _for any reason I choose._ That’s what ‘freedom’ means! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/51 "2014-03-06T18:05:13Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > If I don’t like the way a store looks or smells, or the prices, I can go elsewhere _for any reason I choose._ Who said you can’t? > [@](#): > > That’s what ‘freedom’ means! I’m not sure you grasp how freedom works in our society. It’s not a magic word that you yell that means you can do whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/52 "2014-03-06T18:05:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A quick glance at any number of laws would tell you that this is wrong. We don’t have a pure capitalist system, and thank goodness for that. We should, that’s what is wrong with this country. It’s not a one-way street. It takes two parties to make an agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/53 "2014-03-06T18:06:31Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > We should, that’s what is wrong with this country. It’s much less wrong than the alternative, which was rampant discrimination that permeated almost every corner of society. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/54 "2014-03-06T18:06:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who said you can’t? > > I’m not sure you grasp how freedom works in our society. It’s not a magic word that you yell that means you can do whatever you want. It cannot be such that only \*one \*party is free to choose to business or not with the other party. That’s unjust. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/55 "2014-03-06T18:07:38Z")
**Melchior** , as \*\*Marley \*\*says it is fortunate that we don’t have pure capitalism. That also entails a pure caveat emptor mentality where workplaces are not inspected for safety, and food is not inspected for rat turds (or the fingers of workers). **Muldoon** , I wonder if a photographer would be allowed to say something like “My strongly held religious belief is that gay marriage is immoral, and I would prefer it if you patronized another photographer; however, the law requires that I provide services to you if you insist”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/56 "2014-03-06T18:07:41Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It cannot be such that only \*one \*party is free to choose to business or not with the other party. That’s unjust. The business does have a choice, it just can’t discriminate against classes of people. And no, that’s not unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/57 "2014-03-06T18:07:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s much less wrong than the alternative, which was rampant discrimination that permeated almost every corner of society. What are you talking about? Buying a cake is not a ‘civil’ right! Do you know what ‘civil’ means in the expression ‘civil rights’? Apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/58 "2014-03-06T18:08:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The business does have a choice, it just can’t discriminate against classes of people. And no, that’s not unjust. What ‘class’ is that? He can simply refuse for no reason at all! that’s what I would do if I were in his shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/59 "2014-03-06T18:10:45Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Melchior** , as \*\*Marley \*\*says it is fortunate that we don’t have pure capitalism. That also entails a pure caveat emptor mentality where workplaces are not inspected for safety, and food is not inspected for rat turds (or the fingers of workers). > > **Muldoon** , I wonder if a photographer would be allowed to say something like “My strongly held religious belief is that gay marriage is immoral, and I would prefer it if you patronized another photographer; however, the law requires that I provide services to you if you insist”. It’s not ‘immoral’; it’s not marriage at all! I could not care less what sexual activities consenting adults engage in. This has nothing whatsoever to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/60 "2014-03-06T18:11:19Z")
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