# The real problem with gay people is simply a lack of neighborliness ... and niceness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892 "2014-03-05T01:55:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/81 "2014-03-06T18:42:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Try coming up with a counter-argument instead. The problem is you didn’t present one. Just a bunch of fallacies. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/82 "2014-03-06T18:43:32Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > My question is, how far is this to be pushed then? And I don’t think I’ve seen it answered yet. Can it be made to where the photographer is forced to go to a nudist camp? Be forced to do a wedding of a couple who are 20 when the person doesn’t believe people that young should get married. It’s not really that complicated: those aren’t [protected classes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class). And there is no individual job that the business owner is forced to accept. He cannot discriminate against entire classes of people. > [@Melchior](#): > > The problem is you didn’t present one. Just a bunch of fallacies. I have never seen you identify a fallacy correctly, and I despair of ever seeing it. That said, I actually agree I didn’t present an argument: I was commenting on your argument. You stated your position and I made some accurate comments about its implications and your priorities. So far you’ve failed to respond to that other than saying “um, I call fallacy!!!” Saying something you don’t want to hear isn’t a fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/83 "2014-03-06T18:45:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not really that complicated: those aren’t [protected classes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class). And there is no individual job that the business owner is forced to accept. He cannot discriminate against entire classes of people. So, it depends on how the proprietor expresses it? Is that what you mean? What’s wrong with “sorry, I already have a wedding booked”? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/84 "2014-03-06T18:47:19Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > So, it depends on how the proprietor expresses it? Is that what you mean? No. > [@](#): > > What’s wrong with “sorry, I already have a wedding booked”? If he’s booked, there’s no problem. Once again, nobody is compelled to accept any job. But if it turns out he’s discriminating and coming up with flimsy excuses, there’s a chance he’ll get sued for discrimination and lose. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/85 "2014-03-06T18:48:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not really that complicated: those aren’t [protected classes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class). And there is no individual job that the business owner is forced to accept. He cannot discriminate against entire classes of people. > > I have never seen you identify a fallacy correctly, and I despair of ever seeing it. That said, I actually agree I didn’t present an argument: I was commenting on your argument. You stated your position and I made some accurate comments about its implications and your priorities. So far you’ve failed to respond to that other than saying “um, I call fallacy!!!” Saying something you don’t want to hear isn’t a fallacy. Do you understand that if one party does not even offer a valid argument there is no point to continuing? If anything you offer is fallacious it immediately loses any persuasive force. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/86 "2014-03-06T18:49:25Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Do you understand that if one party does not even offer a valid argument there is no point to continuing? I think you’re stalling because you can’t actually refute what I said about your arguments. Prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/87 "2014-03-06T18:49:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. > > If he’s booked, there’s no problem. Once again, nobody is compelled to accept any job. But if it turns out he’s discriminating and coming up with flimsy excuses, there’s a chance he’ll get sued for discrimination and lose. The point is he has this right. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/88 "2014-03-06T18:49:45Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Bullshit. Each party is free in our capitalist system. This is hilariously incorrect. You may wish it to be free, but that does not make it so. We know what it’s like when each party is “free”. A couple of years or so ago, my son selected a book from the library called Ruth and the Green Book for me to read to him. In my ignorance I just thought it was a book about a family taking a trip. It was actually a book about how people used to deal with “freedom”. The freedom to be refused service at restaurants motels and gas stations when you’re driving from Chicago to Alabama. Of course, it drove a whole new market, a market for a Green Book that told travelers where they would actually be welcome to stop by and spend their money without offending the proprietor. What a lovely time that was, I could feel the fond rememberances while uncomfortably telling the story to my son. If only we could go back to those simpler times. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/89 "2014-03-06T18:52:34Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This is hilariously incorrect. You may wish it to be free, but that does not make it so. > > We know what it’s like when each party is “free”. > > A couple of years or so ago, my son selected a book from the library called Ruth and the Green Book for me to read to him. In my ignorance I just thought it was a book about a family taking a trip. It was actually a book about how people used to deal with “freedom”. The freedom to be refused service at restaurants motels and gas stations when you’re driving from Chicago to Alabama. > > Of course, it drove a whole new market, a market for a Green Book that told travelers where they would actually be welcome to stop by and spend their money without offending the proprietor. > > What a lovely time that was, I could feel the fond rememberances while uncomfortably telling the story to my son. If only we could go back to those simpler times. Fallacy of the single cause, among others. Overgeneralization. The list goes on… Look this over carefully: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_fallacies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/90 "2014-03-06T18:52:35Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The point is he has this right. No, he doesn’t, and we around 50 years of laws and court rulings to back me up. I think you mean “he should have that right,” to which I’d say that I disagree because it paves the way for all kinds of unconscionable and cruel discrimination. But if you want to say he _has_ that right, all I have to say society hasn’t agreed with you for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/91 "2014-03-06T18:55:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, he doesn’t, and we around 50 years of laws and court rulings to back me up. I think you mean “he should have that right,” to which I’d say that I disagree because it paves the way for all kinds of unconscionable and cruel discrimination. But if you want to say he _has_ that right, all I have to say society hasn’t agreed with you for a long time. I have worked in businesses for many years, and in some cases individuals could not come to an agreement on a contract. In some cases the reasons were personal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/92 "2014-03-06T18:57:29Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I have worked in businesses for many years, and in some cases individuals could not come to an agreement on a contract. In some cases the reasons were personal. And? ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/93 "2014-03-06T18:58:49Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The flaw in that idea is that if the best in the area doesn’t want someone for a client and actually dislikes having that person or persons as a client (the way most of would dealing with an unwanted customer), they are not going to produce their best work regardless of what the law says. And risk the negative Yelp reviews? A mediocre place might not care but one that cares about its reputation would. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/94 "2014-03-06T19:00:03Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > And risk the negative Yelp reviews? A mediocre place might not care but one that cares about its reputation would. Does a lawyer take any case that walks in the door? No, of course not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/95 "2014-03-06T19:07:28Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Does a lawyer take any case that walks in the door? No, of course not. Which is legal, and nobody has said otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/96 "2014-03-06T19:08:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Which is legal, and nobody has said otherwise. How is the case different? Please clarify. And how about ‘historically black’ colleges? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/97 "2014-03-06T19:15:37Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > How is the case different? Please clarify. It’s been explained several times already, but discriminating against protected classes is illegal. Choosing which individuals you do business with is not illegal. > [@](#): > > And how about ‘historically black’ colleges? Please explain what you mean. (And while you do, [note that they’re more diverse than you might think.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historically_black_colleges_and_universities#Racial_diversity_at_HBCUs)) ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/98 "2014-03-06T19:56:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s been explained several times already, but discriminating against protected classes is illegal. Choosing which individuals you do business with is not illegal. I understand what protected classes are, is that the line then? If someone is in a protected class the business has to deal with them? What about if the owner doesn’t like fat people. Should they be forced to do a wedding for a fat couple? What if the owner doesn’t like people who smoke? People who do drugs? People with tattoos? That’s the part I’m having problems with, it seems it’s ok to discriminate, unless the law says one can’t. So you’re fine then with saying one don’t need to serve me if they saw me outside with a legal cigar and tattoos, when I’m done I walk in to a cake shop in search of a cake and being told “I don’t serve your kind here”. With my kind being non protected. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/99 "2014-03-06T20:05:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please explain what you mean. (And while you do, [note that they’re more diverse than you might think.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historically_black_colleges_and_universities#Racial_diversity_at_HBCUs)) There’s actually one in West Virginia that is now 90% white. And in fact, the [way it became so white](http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/10/18/236345546/the-whitest-historically-black-college-in-america) is a shady story itself, one that directly illustrates the need for laws against discrimination in housing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/100 "2014-03-06T20:08:23Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > I understand what protected classes are, is that the line then? If someone is in a protected class the business has to deal with them? No. There is no situation in which a business owner has to do business with any one person. The business owner cannot discriminate against the entire class of people. > [@](#): > > What about if the owner doesn’t like fat people. Should they be forced to do a wedding for a fat couple? What if the owner doesn’t like people who smoke? People who do drugs? People with tattoos? Not protected classes. And some of those are behavior. Discriminating against a person based on characteristics is different than discriminating based on their behavior. (This is the distinction some conservatives are drawing, as if gay guys are going to come to the supermarket to buy a cake and just start fucking.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892.md?page=6)