# The real problem with gay people is simply a lack of neighborliness ... and niceness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892 "2014-03-05T01:55:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/161 "2014-03-07T16:24:07Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Read this: > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custom\_(law)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custom_(law)) … > [@](#): > > Customary law is a recognized source of law within jurisdictions of the civil law tradition, where it may be subordinate to both statutes and regulations. […] > Customary legal systems > > ``` > Adat (Malays of Nusantara) > Anglo-Saxon law (England) > Aqsaqal (Central Asia) > Basque and Pyrenean law > Coutume (France) > Customary law (Australia) > Early Germanic law > Early Irish law (Ireland) > Laws of the Brets and Scots (Scotland) > Medieval Scandinavian laws > Pashtunwali and Jirga (Pashtuns of Pakistan and Afghanistan) > Smriti and Ācāra (India) > Customary law (South Africa) > Urf (Arab world/Islamic law) > Welsh Law (Wales) > Xeer (Somalia) > Usos y costumbres (various regions of Latin America) > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/162 "2014-03-07T16:25:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > … They are talking about something a little different there, where laws are not ‘written’. They mean ‘unwritten law’. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/163 "2014-03-07T16:49:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There are two problems with this use of “religious freedom:” it’s a bullshit interpretation of the concept as well as the religion in question, and it undermines everybody’s freedom significantly at the expense of expanding one group’s liberty in a trivial way. I completely agree, but I was trying to look at it from the other side ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/164 "2014-03-07T16:53:29Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > I completely agree, but I was trying to look at it from the other side It’s a bad argument. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/165 "2014-03-07T16:54:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What a bewildering scenario. Just trying to extend sciurophobic’s logic to other situations. If it’s OK for a baker to refuse a Satanist, it should be OK for a pump jockey or fast food slinger, and it should be OK for a baker to refuse a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/166 "2014-03-07T16:58:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Just trying to extend sciurophobic’s logic to other situations. If it’s OK for a baker to refuse a Satanist, it should be OK for a pump jockey or fast food slinger, and it should be OK for a baker to refuse a Jew. Yes. He can refuse anyone he wants to. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/167 "2014-03-07T17:09:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Just trying to extend sciurophobic’s logic to other situations. If it’s OK for a baker to refuse a Satanist, it should be OK for a pump jockey or fast food slinger, and it should be OK for a baker to refuse a Jew. No. Let me try again. Scenario 1: Satanist customer: I’d like a cake. I’m throwing a birthday party. Christian baker: You’re a Satanist. I don’t like your religion. Go away. My conclusion: The baker is in the wrong. He’s discriminating against a member of a protected class. Scenario 2: Satanist customer: I’d like a cake. I need it for a Black Mass. Christian baker: That would be blasphemous. My religious belief is that I can have no part of it. My conclusion: I’m not sure. Is the Satanist being discriminated against, or is the baker making a legitimate business decision? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/168 "2014-03-07T17:15:18Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes. He can refuse anyone he wants to. An image came to my head, an old shop with a sign reading: “No Libertarians allowed”. The perfect crime. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/169 "2014-03-07T17:15:36Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > I completely agree, but I was trying to look at it from the other side Fair enough. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Just trying to extend sciurophobic’s logic to other situations. If it’s OK for a baker to refuse a Satanist, it should be OK for a pump jockey or fast food slinger, and it should be OK for a baker to refuse a Jew. Or a black person, or a woman, or an old person. This is what we’ve already decided as a society is intolerable. > [@Melchior](#): > > Yes. He can refuse anyone he wants to. Are you talking about the logic **sciurophobic** is proposing, or about what you believe he should be free to do (which he is not)? A few extra words would make your commentary a lot clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/170 "2014-03-07T17:35:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Fair enough. > > Or a black person, or a woman, or an old person. This is what we’ve already decided as a society is intolerable. > > Are you talking about the logic **sciurophobic** is proposing, or about what you believe he should be free to do (which he is not)? A few extra words would make your commentary a lot clearer. He is free to turn around and simply walk away. He does \*not \*have to offer a reason or have one. This is a free country! That’s what ‘freedom’ means! He certainly does not have to blame the other party. He could use the George Costanza approach: ‘It’s not you, it’s me’. [http://youtu.be/pezCrpDlmCs](http://youtu.be/pezCrpDlmCs) ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/171 "2014-03-07T17:46:48Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > He is free to turn around and simply walk away. He does \*not \*have to offer a reason or have one. This is a free country! That’s what ‘freedom’ means! He certainly does not have to blame the other party. He could use the George Costanza approach: ‘It’s not you, it’s me’. > > [http://youtu.be/pezCrpDlmCs](http://youtu.be/pezCrpDlmCs) Or, simply say: ‘No cake for you!’ [http://youtu.be/uVqBzP0xdKk](http://youtu.be/uVqBzP0xdKk) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/172 "2014-03-07T17:49:01Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > He is free to turn around and simply walk away. He does \*not \*have to offer a reason or have one. This is a free country! That’s what ‘freedom’ means! Again… not really true. You can turn away any individual you like, but you cannot make a habit of turning away people because they belong to a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/173 "2014-03-07T17:52:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again… not really true. You can turn away any individual you like, but you cannot make a habit of turning away people because they belong to a protected class. No cake for you! I went to get pizza last week and they had no dough. True story. It’s café that serves pizza on Tuesday and Thursday only, and the delivery did not come. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/174 "2014-03-07T18:15:34Z")
The funny thing to me about the title of this thread is that, of the people I know who are gay, the ones I don’t gel with are the ones who are too nice, to the point that it starts feeling awkward. I know the stereotype is that gay men are bitch and gay women are brutish, but I’ve never encountered that situation in real life. Perhaps it’s because they know what it’s like to be treated poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/175 "2014-03-07T18:23:47Z")
Gay men aren’t different from any other group in terms of diversity. Some of the nicest and most polite people I’ve met are gay, and so are some of the biggest jerks. And in both cases I wouldn’t assume that being discriminated against has anything to do with it. There are so many things that shape our personalities that it can be hard to find a common thread like that in a large group of people. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/176 "2014-03-07T18:45:06Z")
I wonder if Melchior is taking the system whereby, when no statute governs, judges make rulings on the basis of common practice, which then becomes precedent – or the precedent system itself – along with the fact that legislatures sometimes take it upon themselves to codify custom as statute, and concluding that law and custom are the same. I’m seeing hints of SovCit logic there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/177 "2014-03-07T18:58:24Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I wonder if Melchior is taking the system whereby, when no statute governs, judges make rulings on the basis of common practice, which then becomes precedent – or the precedent system itself – along with the fact that legislatures sometimes take it upon themselves to codify custom as statute, and concluding that law and custom are the same. > > I’m seeing hints of SovCit logic there as well. Well, I’m talking about more primitive stages of society where there was no ‘written’ law. Marriage customs date from prehistory. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/178 "2014-03-08T00:04:44Z")
Real life: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester\_Maddox#Restaurant\_owner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Maddox#Restaurant_owner) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/179 "2014-03-08T01:19:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > How about a sign that says “Church of Jesus Christ (Christian Identity): Whites Only”. > > Comfortable with that? > > [Church of Jesus Christ–Christian - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Jesus_Christ%E2%80%93Christian) As an atheist, I wouldn’t be comfortable with any of the putative religious bakeries I postulated, and I would avoid patronising them. But I do think it would be a way to deal with the issue without forcing people to violate their consciences. > [@Melchior](#): > > the area of law governing marriage stems from custom. Two points in response to that: (1) Whatever it “stems from”, what it ultimately becomes is determined by legislatures and courts. (2) The customs around marriage have changed many times over the years, and most recently they have changed to include same sex couples. (I would predict that polygamy is likely to be the next such change.) > [@sciurophobic](#): > > Scenario 1: > Satanist customer: I’d like a cake. I’m throwing a birthday party. > Christian baker: You’re a Satanist. I don’t like your religion. Go away. > My conclusion: The baker is in the wrong. He’s discriminating against a member of a protected class. > > Scenario 2: > Satanist customer: I’d like a cake. I need it for a Black Mass. > Christian baker: That would be blasphemous. My religious belief is that I can have no part of it. > My conclusion: I’m not sure. Is the Satanist being discriminated against, or is the baker making a legitimate business decision? “Legitimate” is in the eye of the beholder; but I do think it should be constitutionally protected. I don’t want to see people who make art on commission be required to commission works that they find repugnant. Whether I personally agree with their repugnance is not really the appropriate litmus. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892/180 "2014-03-08T03:31:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > . . . I don’t want to see people who make art on commission be required to commission works that they find repugnant. Whether I personally agree with their repugnance is not really the appropriate litmus. One quick defense against satanic or phallic cakes is to have a catalog of cakes: the customer can choose model A, model B, or model C. No customization. The problem, of course, is that the baker then must never make exceptions and do customizations for anyone, because if he bends his rule for one group, and not for another, he’s risking committing actionable discrimination. Still, as it goes, it’s a foolproof defense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-real-problem-with-gay-people-is-simply-a-lack-of-neighborliness-and-niceness/682892.md?page=10)