# The "reasonable conversation about guns" that anti-gun Internet people want **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334 "2013-04-21T21:36:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/41 "2013-04-22T11:40:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That was my point. There are crazy anti-gun people like the OP described. And there are crazy pro-gun people. The crazies on both sides have no interest in reasonable conversation. > > A reasonable conversation will happen between the reasonable pro-gun people and the reasonable anti-gun people. Isnt’ there an SMBC cartoon that explains that? I can’t seem to find it. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/42 "2013-04-22T11:49:52Z")
The rise of the idea that the 2nd amendment guarentees the right to own any type of firearm is pretty new, it has coincided with the slow decline of white males’ stranglehold on power in the US. I’m sick to death of these scared little men from our backwaters dragging our culture down. Everyone has to wait until they can wrap their brains around integration, then we tread water waiting for them to accept women’s rights, then we have to impatiently wait while they figure out that gays are people too, now it’s global warming, evolution and guns. > [@](#): > > 1. “I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons,” said NRA President Karl T. Frederick, a 1920 Olympic gold-medal winner for marksmanship who became a lawyer, praising state gun control laws in Congress. He testified before the 1938 federal gun control law passed. “I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” > > 2. “We do think that any sane American, who calls himself an American, can object to placing into this bill the instrument which killed the president of the United States,” NRA Executive Vice-President Franklin Orth told Congress, shortly after Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed President John F. Kennedy with an Italian military surplus rifle Oswald bought from a mail-order ad in the NRA’sAmerican Rifleman magazine. > > 3. “There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons,” said California Gov. Ronald Reagan in May 1967, after two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill. Reagan said guns were “a ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.” > > 4. “You do know that I am a member of the NRA and my position on the right to bear arms is well known,” Reagan said, speaking out in support of the 1994 Brady bill to create new background checks and a waiting period for gun buyers. “But I want you to know something else, and I am going to say it in clear, unmistakable language: I support the Brady Bill and I urge Congress to enact it without further delay.”… > > 5. The Second Amendment “has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime,” Burger told PBS’ News Hour in late 1991, referring to the NRA’s claim that the U.S. Constitution included a personal right to own guns… > **[7 uncovered quotes that reveal just how crazy the NRA's become](https://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/7_uncovered_quotes_that_reveal_just_how_crazy_the_nras_become/)** > > The organization once supported reasonable gun control laws. Now it's a lobby group for paranoid extremists ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/43 "2013-04-22T12:15:14Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Ehh. Give **Airman** some credit here. I can think of no countries that have attempted to create/first-time implement strict gun control/ownership laws with widespread pre-existing gun ownership and a modern economy to deal with. So, in that sense, the US is somewhat exceptional. Here’s the Daily Show’s piece on Australian gun control: > **[Comedy Central The Daily Show Fan Page](https://www.cc.com/fan-hub/the-daily-show)** > > The source for The Daily Show fans, with episodes hosted by Jon Stewart, Ronny Chieng, Jordan Klepper, Dulcé Sloan and more, plus interviews, highlights and The Weekly Show podcast. Are you, like the idiot in this clip, arguing that Australia is not on our planet? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/44 "2013-04-22T12:17:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Are you, like the idiot in this clip, arguing that Australia is not on our planet? Have you seen some of the animals they have there!? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/45 "2013-04-22T12:24:52Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The rise of the idea that the 2nd amendment guarentees the right to own any type of firearm is pretty new, it has coincided with the slow decline of white males’ stranglehold on power in the US. I’m sick to death of these scared little men from our backwaters dragging our culture down. Everyone has to wait until they can wrap their brains around integration, then we tread water waiting for them to accept women’s rights, then we have to impatiently wait while they figure out that gays are people too, now it’s global warming, evolution and guns. I think there is something to this. I was watching Maddow’s show the other day, and she was playing clips from a protest of mother’s in favor of gun control in Indiana. Their protest spawned a counter-protest of people standing around prominently displaying their weapons. Maddow’s point was that intimidation a la Second Amendment remedies is not only wrong, but tends to be rejected by the majority of the American people. What I actually found interesting was that these guys were all white and almost exclusively paunchy, doughy middle aged guys. I’ve noticed this in other photos of gun shows. Lots of soft, doughy, middle aged white guys - so much so, it sometimes looks like a bunch of clones. I also note that public polling shows that majorities of gun owners now own guns primarily for self-defense rather than hunting. So, we all have to cope with the problems caused by this group of soft, doughy middle aged white guys as they try to deal with their existential anxieties and the challenges of a changing modern world. Once again I suggest that, like water fluoridation to improve public dental health, we implement water Xanaxification to improve public mental health. ---
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/46 "2013-04-22T12:57:43Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Isnt’ there an SMBC cartoon that explains that? I can’t seem to find it. [This one](http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2939#comic)? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/47 "2013-04-22T13:00:06Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > So, lets get specific. Post a link to one federal bill that included language for the confiscation of guns from law abiding citizens. I need some clarification on this request. What constitutes “confiscation” from your point of view? For example, if a proposed bill required that every firearm owner either give up his firearm or pay a tax of $3000 per firearm – is that confiscation? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/48 "2013-04-22T13:06:18Z")
> [@BorgHunter](#): > > [This one](http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2939#comic)? That’s the one. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/49 "2013-04-22T14:02:11Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > We had the Assault Weapons Ban for 10 years. I didn’t work. You got to slack off for 10 years? Nice! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/50 "2013-04-22T14:21:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I need some clarification on this request. What constitutes “confiscation” from your point of view? > > For example, if a proposed bill required that every firearm owner either give up his firearm or pay a tax of $3000 per firearm – is that confiscation? Was there a bill that proposed that? ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/51 "2013-04-22T14:31:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I need some clarification on this request. What constitutes “confiscation” from your point of view? > > For example, if a proposed bill required that every firearm owner either give up his firearm or pay a tax of $3000 per firearm – is that confiscation? Confiscation: Legal seizure without compensation by a government or other public authority. (wikipedia) $3000 tax = Confiscation = NO. My property taxes go up every year. I can sell the property if I don’t want to pay the taxes. That is NOT confiscation. But I would like to see this proposed federal regulation that would impose a $3000 tax on each gun. (and please at least highlight the language if the bill is like 30 pages long) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/52 "2013-04-22T16:31:37Z")
The OP made me laugh, and I’m anti-gun. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Not only do gun-confiscation proponents not actually exist… Given the context, I assume this is supposed to be untrue. So, where are these programs? 😕 ETA: I see this is already being addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/53 "2013-04-22T16:41:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Was there a bill that proposed that? I’m not sure. I searched online and I found people saying there is a proposed bill like this but I couldn’t find a cite to the actual bill. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/54 "2013-04-22T16:44:31Z")
I don’t doubt that someone, somewhere proposed one in the pre-Heller years. I’d still like to see a cite though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/55 "2013-04-22T16:44:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I need some clarification on this request. What constitutes “confiscation” from your point of view? > > For example, if a proposed bill required that every firearm owner either give up his firearm or pay a tax of $3000 per firearm – is that confiscation? To answer this question: in my personal opinion, if there were such a tax, I’d consider it unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/56 "2013-04-22T17:17:00Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Confiscation: Legal seizure without compensation by a government or other public authority. (wikipedia) > > $3000 tax = Confiscation = NO. My property taxes go up every year. I can sell the property if I don’t want to pay the taxes. That is NOT confiscation. But I would like to see this proposed federal regulation that would impose a $3000 tax on each gun. (and please at least highlight the language if the bill is like 30 pages long) Well, there is, in the law, a concept called “constructive taking.” When government regulation removes substantially all economically viable use of private property – as a $3,000 tax on a single firearm might be said to do – that is considered confiscation as well. In other words, your comparison to your property tax isn’t quite on point. If your property tax went from zero to $3000 per square foot, for example, you might see things differently. You couldn’t simply sell the property – the new owner would then be on the hook for the $3,000 per square foot tax. The imposition of that tax would mean, from a practical standpoint, that your property couldn’t be owned by anyone – the tax would be many times the value of the property itself. Does that argument change your mind? Is there any level of taxation that would amount to confiscation? How about $100,000 per firearm? A cool million? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/57 "2013-04-22T17:27:42Z")
It seems like a waste of time to follow this hypothetical until there’s some evidence that it exists. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/58 "2013-04-22T17:29:41Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The rise of the idea that the 2nd amendment guarentees the right to own any type of firearm is pretty new, it has coincided with the slow decline of white males’ stranglehold on power in the US. I’m sick to death of these scared little men from our backwaters dragging our culture down. Everyone has to wait until they can wrap their brains around integration, then we tread water waiting for them to accept women’s rights, then we have to impatiently wait while they figure out that gays are people too, now it’s global warming, evolution and guns. > [7 uncovered quotes that reveal just how crazy the NRA's become - Salon.com](http://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/7_uncovered_quotes_that_reveal_just_how_crazy_the_nras_become/) A fine post and excellent cite. Too bad Roberts isn’t half the Justice that Burger was. I used to be more tolerant of guns. I still don’t begrudge hunters their rifles and shotguns. I used to think if you were stupid enough to think that you need a handgun at home for self defense, go ahead and knock yourself out. Now I’m against any private ownership of handguns and any non-hunting weapons at all. It’s because gun owners have proven themselves time and time again to be mad as hatters. Somehow limiting someone to 10 shots without reloading is akin to castration. So I say fuck 'em, you want to be unreasonable, so will I. I hate to break it to you gun lovers, but the NRA does not represent you. They represent weapons manufacturers. The same ones who make money ass over applecart everytime you fools go on buying binges, which you do every time Diane Feinstein farts. So they scare the piss out of you by making you think your pwecious little guns are going to be taken from you, you go ahead and spend all your spare cash on guns and ammos, the manufacturers clean up and kick back your money to the NRA. Enjoy it while you can- I don’t know if we’ll get sensible gun control this year, next year, the next decade, or the next century, but we’ll get there. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/59 "2013-04-22T17:37:00Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The rise of the idea that the 2nd amendment guarentees the right to own any type of firearm is pretty new, it has coincided with the slow decline of white males’ stranglehold on power in the US. I’m sick to death of these scared little men from our backwaters dragging our culture down. Everyone has to wait until they can wrap their brains around integration, then we tread water waiting for them to accept women’s rights, then we have to impatiently wait while they figure out that gays are people too, now it’s global warming, evolution and guns. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now I’m against any private ownership of handguns and any non-hunting weapons at all. So here we have random accusations of racism and advocacy of total confiscation. Does anyone want to complete the checklist of Shit Gun Confiscators Say that I originally posted so as to prove my point? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/60 "2013-04-22T17:42:52Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > So here we have random accusations of racism and advocacy of total confiscation. Does anyone want to complete the checklist of Shit Gun Confiscators Say that I originally posted so as to prove my point? Nothing we could ever say would be as remotely moronic as “the Second protects the First” or “When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334.md?page=4)