# The religion of peace and toleration continues to amaze **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786 "2007-11-26T12:38:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/41 "2007-11-26T15:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Sudan ≠ Islam. [/QUOTE] What is your point? Are you disagreeing with my statement or do you just enjoy making points by taking sentences out of context? [QUOTE=What I posted] At this point, I think it is more about **a large portion of a particular religion** than religion as a whole. What Christians seemed to have matured out of a century or two ago, too many Muslims still seem to be living in the dark ages. Of courses Jews seemed to have got over these particular insanities over a thousand years ago. Why is this one very large and popular religion still living so much in the dark ages is I think the question. [/QUOTE] Thank you for your content-less little testimonial to the obvious and for quoting out of context. Jim ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/42 "2007-11-26T15:10:28Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] No, it’s an argument that communism isn’t really atheism at all, but just another religion. Atheism has no ideology. [/QUOTE] Are you really as shallow as you sound? ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/43 "2007-11-26T15:10:36Z")
I am missing where atheism claimed to be the religion of peace and toleration? If Islam declared that it was the religion of assholish judgmentalism I doubt that the OP would have been written. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/44 "2007-11-26T15:13:09Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] That is simply a belief that invisible pink unicorns and their ilk have no role in the institutions and organisation of societies. Totalitarian ideologies just replace God with the State as the object of veneration and the source of legitimacy. What China, the ussr and fascism got up to is not in any way related to atheism and so are not ‘balancers’ when religion is righteously pitted. [/QUOTE] You can always tell when an atheist knows he doesn’t have a case. He starts blithering about invisible pink unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/45 "2007-11-26T15:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] The image and name of the Kims are deeply ingrained as the sacred goods of North Korea, and a special etiquette has evolved in dealing with them. Rules exist for handling, carrying, hanging, and even disposing of Kim faces and portraits. There are also rituals for their printed names. [/QUOTE] I fail to see how this is an indictment of atheism. This sounds so very exactly like religion to me. But perhaps we shouldn’t quibble over whether humans acting badly is about faith, or a deity, or an economic philosophy. Let’s make a quick list of humans at their very worst and committing atrocities: Islam (in its current extremist form) Christianity (in some cases, mostly in the past) Communism Kim Jong Ilism Fascism What did I miss? It can be argued that, say, fascism was just a fancy way of expressing atheism, but I have never in my life met an honest atheist who ever thought that Hitler was a nice guy. Far from it. What do the things on my list have in common? Hmm, how about group think? Idolatry? Us vs Them thinking? Fanaticism? Extreme devotion to a charismatic leader? Damning your neighbor so that you don’t look so bad? Extreme authoritarianism? I suggest that if we want to get anywhere, we think in those terms. All of this “My god is better than your non-god” is not only counterproductive, but ultimately leads to the kind of bad behavior we all pretend to loathe. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/46 "2007-11-26T15:14:49Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] What Exit: Not that I wish, G-d forbid, to detract from the perceived civilized-ness of the Jewish religion, but - it’s easy to get over the kind of insanities associated with religious authorities exerting temporal power when your religious authorities have no temporal power. [/QUOTE] That is a fair objection. Christians have overall learned to be a lot more tolerant than their history at least. So far, in the only place the Jews have temporal power, they don’t appear to be guilty of these excesses. Far too many of the Islamic countries are guilty of this type of behavior. Jim ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/47 "2007-11-26T15:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Will you kindly stop speaking on my behalf? Because you’re either too stupid or too unscrupulous to get it right. Everybody BUT you can see what I reiterated in [post #27](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9211215&postcount=27), just above. A third grader can understand the difference between “people treat communism like a religion” and “communism is a religion”. You must have been absent that year. [/QUOTE] You refuse to see what Der Trihs is saying, because you don’t like him, but you go into other threads and make what is essentially the same argument when it suits you. Der Trihs was painting with too broad a brush, but plenty of people understood the essential point he was trying to make, even you. But you sneer and call it ignorance, because you dislike him as a poster. Fine. But you aren’t fooling anyone. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/48 "2007-11-26T15:16:28Z")
[QUOTE=FordPrefect] I am missing where atheism claimed to be the religion of peace and toleration? If Islam declared that it was the religion of assholish judgmentalism I doubt that the OP would have been written. [/QUOTE] You’re missing the point. We’re not allowed to judge Islam. Nothing it does is bad. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/49 "2007-11-26T15:20:43Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] You can always tell when an atheist knows he doesn’t have a case. He starts blithering about invisible pink unicorns. [/QUOTE] Hey - this is the Pit right? so I can say screw you quite legitimately? Have you got an actual argument or are you just going to continue making shit up? Secularism’s meaning is only in dispute, like gods, in your head. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods and no matter how you puff, preen, rant and rave you cannot create a political ideology from it let alone say one or more variety of totalitarianism is its political ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/50 "2007-11-26T15:25:09Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] What do the things on my list have in common? Hmm, how about group think? Idolatry? Us vs Them thinking? Fanaticism? Extreme devotion to a charismatic leader? Damning your neighbor so that you don’t look so bad? Extreme authoritarianism? [/QUOTE] Your list is missing the Society of Friends (Quakers), Hinduism, and other pacifist philosophies that actually are religions. That means your list of tyrannies cannot be ascribed to religion as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/51 "2007-11-26T15:26:06Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] You’re missing the point. We’re not allowed to judge Islam. Nothing it does is bad. [/QUOTE] I am also missing the difference between a statement and question in my first sentence. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/52 "2007-11-26T15:26:40Z")
It seems to me that naming something after a major figure in one’s religion would be more an honor than anything else. But perhaps that doesn’t apply to teddy bears. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/53 "2007-11-26T15:28:02Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Your list is missing the Society of Friends (Quakers), Hinduism, and other pacifist philosophies that actually are religions. That means your list of tyrannies cannot be ascribed to religion as a whole. [/QUOTE] If I understand you correctly, the atheists only need to come up with a short list of good atheist organizations and all our sins in Russia and China will be like water under the bridge. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/54 "2007-11-26T15:29:42Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Hinduism, and other pacifist philosophies that actually are religions. [/QUOTE] Hinduism is not a pacifist philosophy. Some Hindus are pacifists; the vast majority are not. (And just to take one small example: The essence of the Bhagavad Gita, after all, is Krishna telling Arjun to murder half his family because that’s his duty as a Kshatriya.) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/55 "2007-11-26T15:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Your list is missing the Society of Friends (Quakers), Hinduism, and other pacifist philosophies that actually are religions. That means your list of tyrannies cannot be ascribed to religion as a whole. [/QUOTE] Hinduism is not a pacifist religion. [link](http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/infodocs/st_religions.html) > [@](#): > > Hinduism is perhaps the oldest world religion; in some of its writings ahimsa has been considered the highest duty from the beginning of time. Jainism also grew out of Hinduism; Jainists believe that people should strive to become detached from the distractions of worldly existence; and that the practice of ahimsa is an essential step on the way to personal salvation. > > In Hinduism, however, there is another tradition. The Hindu scripture called the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ tells the story of Arjuna, who learns it is his duty to fight as a member of the soldier caste. Arjuna is told by his chariot driver Krishna, who is really the god Vishnu in human form, that: > > ‘Even without you, all the soldiers standing armed for battle will not stay alive. Their death is foreordained.’ Bhagavad Gita 11:32-3 > > In the story Arjuna overcomes his doubts and fights, even though he knows it means killing some of his own family. Strict rules, however, are laid down for war: cavalry may only go into action against cavalry, infantry against infantry and so on. The wounded, runaways, and all civilians are to be respected. The idea of a Just War is represented here. > > How did Gandhi deal with this story in a scripture he loved? He thought of it as an allegory, and interpreted it as meaning that one should certainly engage in struggle, but only by means of non-violence. Certainly one should not kill anyone. However, not all Hindus interpret the story in Gandhi’s way. It’s hard on for throwing widows onto the barbie is also a strike against. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/56 "2007-11-26T15:33:40Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] All religions do (“it tells them from childhood that it’s good to terrorize unbelievers”). It’s their nature. The nature of faith. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. "Howsoever men try to worship me, so do I welcome them. By whatever path they travel, it leads to me at last." An English translation of Chapter 4, Verse 11, _Bhagavad Gita_ ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/57 "2007-11-26T15:36:46Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] I’m saying that human nature doesn’t change with ideology. Bullies will be bullies. If they don’t persecute one person for naming a teddy bear Muhammad, they’ll persecute someone else for using a sheet of newspaper with Stalin’s picture on it for toilet paper. [/QUOTE] “Yes” would have been enough. > [@Liberal](#): > > However, on the off chance that you might be convinced of how an atheist ruler might view the treatment of his image and name, consider Kim Jung Il: Since I never said “all atheists are good”, I fail to see how this refutes my point. It’s the same as with the Soviet argument, which I should really have responded to preemptively as the probability of it coming up was somewhere above 1. > [@What Exit?](#): > > Interesting, I am anti-religion and anti-communist but you are the only person I know of that would equate the two together. The only person? I’ve heard it hundreds of times. Don’t entirely disagree with it either. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Okay, In a world without religion, who outside Mecca and Yathrib would have ever heard of Mohammed? How many sixth-century merchants can you name, off the top of your head? It would be a stupid thing to call a bear, kind of like naming a frog Herakleitos. So, like I said, in a world without religion she wouldn’t have been arrested for naming a teddy bear Muhammed. It appears we are in agreement. Sidenote: Communism does not equal atheism. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/58 "2007-11-26T15:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] So, like I said, in a world without religion she wouldn’t have been arrested for naming a teddy bear Muhammed. It appears we are in agreement. Sidenote: Communism does not equal atheism. [/QUOTE] I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest if she’d allowed the kids to name it Adolf or Josef it wouldn’t be clobbering time for teachers either. It’s almost like there is something about the name Mohammed, something religious even, that seems to be the active variable. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/59 "2007-11-26T15:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Your list is missing the Society of Friends (Quakers), Hinduism, and other pacifist philosophies that actually are religions. That means your list of tyrannies cannot be ascribed to religion as a whole. [/QUOTE] And I never tried to, so I think you’re missing the point. I was not making a list of religions, I was making a list of movements in which mass atrocities occurred. Is it possible for a religious sect to be peaceful? Of course. Very few (but there are some) would argue otherwise. But let’s look at the list of the most violent and intolerant movements. What do they have in common? It is often argued that fascism was atheistic, but that’s extraordinarily off-point. Hitler was their god. At the heart of any violent fanaticism is a leader of some sort. God, Allah, Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong Il. At the heart of it is a mindless devotion to the leader. At the heart of it is extreme intolerance of any dissent in thinking. And often, at the heart of it is a fear of appearing to dissent, and a willingness to point fingers so that you look like you’re toeing the party line. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786/60 "2007-11-26T15:40:54Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Hinduism is not a pacifist philosophy. Some Hindus are pacifists; the vast majority are not. [/QUOTE] And yet, since we’re making comparisons between various religio-political systems, I think it’s fair to point out the paucity of Crusades, Inquisitions, and assorted Holy Wars conducted in the name of Vishnu or Shiva. > [@](#): > > (And just to take one small example: The essence of the Bhagavad Gita, after all, is Krishna telling Arjun to murder half his family because that’s his duty as a Kshatriya.) This is an incredibly simplistic and superficial reading of the text. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-religion-of-peace-and-toleration-continues-to-amaze/427786.md?page=4)