# The Repeal of Obamacare/ACA: Step-bystep, Inch-by-inch **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146 "2017-01-02T17:06:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/181 "2017-01-06T16:45:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That has to be one of the most vapidly idiotic comments that’s ever been posted on the subject. For someone who presumes to pontificate on how things work, you appear to have an appalling lack of understanding of how health care works. Health care economics is an academic discipline that can be empirically studied. The administration of health care systems can be empirically studied. The ethics of health care – and notably the fact that everyone will have a need for it at various times in their lives and most likely a critical need for it at some point – can be studied with respect to the moral obligations of a civilized society. > > None of those things are particularly difficult things to study, and it’s a mystery to no one that the US health care system costs more than twice as much per capita as the OECD average, results in poorer outcomes, and leaves behind a swath of personal bankruptcies every year along with morally untenable consequences including preventable suffering and deaths. It’s a mystery to no one that despite vast differences in government and ideology every single industrialized democracy on earth has embraced universal health care as a basic human right – except the United States. Different nations have different implementations of their health care systems, but all embrace the same fundamental principles of universality and shared responsibility – principles that Republican ideology rejects out of hand. > > The problem in the US isn’t about lack of empirical evidence, it’s the fact that the Republican agenda and much of the misconceptions of popular belief are based on a pack of lies, and have been since at least the late 50s and early 60s [when Reagan railed against Medicare](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-e-carroll/news-flash-medicare-didnt_b_383875.html), introducing scare words like “socialized medicine” and warning that it would be the end of America as we know it, and that if Medicare wasn’t stopped, “one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.” Today exactly the same excuses and scare tactics are directed against any kind of meaningful health care reform. Ummm… ok… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/182 "2017-01-06T16:57:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you agreeing to form public policy based on Jesus’ teachings? Are you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/183 "2017-01-06T16:57:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you agreeing to form public policy based on Jesus’ teachings? Oh, **Bricker** , _please_! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/184 "2017-01-06T17:22:06Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > …because the United States is not everywhere else. That’s kind of the point of sovereignty is determining what’s best for your citizens regardless of what anyone else may or may not be doing. The citizens of the United States for, whatever reason(s), may determine that’s not the system they prefer to use or the system that works best for them. American Exceptionalism. It’s pretty much the only go-to answer, isn’t it? It works everywhere else in the world, but cannot work her because we don’t want it to. I guess that makes some kind of sense to you. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/185 "2017-01-06T17:28:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And… what “national healthcare initiative” is that? Because I am unaware of anything that covers _everyone_ in the country, except the law that the ER can’t turn you away if you’re in imminent danger of death. > [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Medicaid. It exists. I spent my entire childhood going to Medicaid doctors. And here we have an illustration of misinformation. Medicaid is VERY LIMITED. In many states it is ONLY available to children - no adult receives it, despite adults also needing medical care. In other places, only adults with dependent children can get, or only pregnant women, or able-bodied men are explicitly excluded. In other words, it’s NOT universally available. Please educate yourself as to the facts so you are capable of making good decisions about such critical topics. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/186 "2017-01-06T17:32:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > American Exceptionalism. It’s pretty much the only go-to answer, isn’t it? > > It works everywhere else in the world, but cannot work her because we don’t want it to. I guess that makes some kind of sense to you. and British exceptionalism… and French exceptionalism… and Venezuelan exceptionalism… It doesn’t work here because the citizens of this country, for whatever reason, cannot, as mentioned by another, agree on a mutually satisfactory solution. That’s not to say there won’t be a solution. That’s not to say the solution will be as you or I or wolfpup (once the lithium kicks in) envision. However, “because everyone else does it” is not a good enough answer to just through any old shit up against the wall just to say we are like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/187 "2017-01-06T17:34:20Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > My opinion is that we already have a national healthcare initiative **that may need to be enhanced and broadened in terms of eligibility**. It’s not great but it covers the basics and catastrophes . It can be combined with privatized insurance for added coordinated benefit. > [@Broomstick](#): > > And here we have an illustration of misinformation. > > Medicaid is VERY LIMITED. In many states it is ONLY available to children - no adult receives it, despite adults also needing medical care. In other places, only adults with dependent children can get, or only pregnant women, or able-bodied men are explicitly excluded. In other words, it’s NOT universally available. > > Please educate yourself as to the facts so you are capable of making good decisions about such critical topics. I highlighted the relevant portion for you. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/188 "2017-01-06T17:38:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you agreeing to form public policy based on Jesus’ teachings? The people who have _already_ declared an intention to form public policy based on Jesus’ teachings are at the head of the line. When they finish doing so, and only then, can we get around to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/189 "2017-01-06T17:41:06Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > It doesn’t work here because the citizens of this country, for whatever reason, cannot, as mentioned by another, agree on a mutually satisfactory solution. . I would posit that the “whatever reason” is that those who make large profits out of pushing paper around in the middle of the current system don’t want it to change, because this would mean the loss of their profits that they currently suck out. And so they pay politicians to keep change from happening. Another reason is that the polarized political system has made one party refuse to do Anything to make the situation better, out of fear that it would make the other partly look good. Party before Country. Feel free to extend your argument by saying I need Lithium too. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/190 "2017-01-06T17:46:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would posit that the “whatever reason” is that those who make large profits out of pushing paper around in the middle of the current system don’t want it to change, because this would mean the loss of their profits that they currently suck out. > > And so they pay politicians to keep change from happening. > > Another reason is that the polarized political system has made one party refuse to do Anything to make the situation better, out of fear that it would make the other partly look good. > > Party before Country. > > Feel free to extend your argument by saying I need Lithium too. I’ll say to you what I said to **filmore**. Your opinion carries the same weight as any other citizen of this country. Whether I believe it to be true or less valid or self serving or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/191 "2017-01-06T17:58:22Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > It doesn’t work here because the citizens of this country, for whatever reason, cannot, as mentioned by another, agree on a mutually satisfactory solution. I attribute it to ideologically-based propaganda and keeping the public ignorant. Why do you think that is so? > [@](#): > > However, “because everyone else does it” is not a good enough answer to just through any old shit up against the wall just to say we are like everyone else. If it’s successful everywhere else then you have to ask in what way are we so different it couldn’t work here? It’s not lack of money - we’re the wealthiest nation (overall - there are individual exceptions) on the planet. It’s not lack of skilled professionals - people come from all over the world to study medicine here. It’s not lack of infrastructure - we’ve got more of just about anything you care to name in a material sense. Some of our cities, for example, have more imaging equipment than entire nations. So tell me why you’re so certain universal coverage like in Europe won’t work here. Other than “Americans are assholes to those less fortunate than themselves”. > [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > I highlighted the relevant portion for you. You’re welcome. Yet you and your fellow Republicans have shot down the attempt to do just that - that was a major point of the ACA. You have already rejected what you proposed. Was that out of ignorance of what the ACA actually is or some other reason? > [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > I’ll say to you what I said to **filmore**. Your opinion be true or less valid or self serving or whatever. All opinions are NOT equal. Someone who is ignorant, uninformed, or misinformed can form an opinion but it will not be a useful or valuable as someone who is educated, information and properly informed of the facts forming an opinion. From what I’ve seen of your posting so far, you seem to fall in the former and not the latter group. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/192 "2017-01-06T18:00:38Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Ummm… ok… An excellent summation of your brilliant arguments and your amazing depth of knowledge on the subject! 😃 I mean, the US is a sovereign country, so why NOT let sick people die, right? Why didn’t I think of that before? > [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > It doesn’t work here because the citizens of this country, for whatever reason, cannot, as mentioned by another, agree on a mutually satisfactory solution. Would those be the same geniuses who believed (as per my earlier link) that Medicare was Socialized Medicine™ and would be the end of America as we know it and would usher in the end of freedom and the dark days of communism? Would those be the same geniuses who believed that Obamacare would have “death panels”, and that Obama himself was a Kenyan-born Muslim? > [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > However, “because everyone else does it” is not a good enough answer to just through any old shit up against the wall just to say we are like everyone else. No, but if every advanced democracy on the planet, without exception, embraces a similar set of health care principles resulting in better health care outcomes than the US at less than half the cost, and they do so in a way that health care economists have been saying for years is the only viable approach to sustainable effective health care, then ignoring it all is the epitome of willful ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/193 "2017-01-06T18:08:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I attribute it to ideologically-based propaganda and keeping the public ignorant. Why do you think that is so? Because based on your posts (including later in this very post) you are on the “With us or agin us.” wagon which I think is flawed. > [@Broomstick](#): > > If it’s successful everywhere else then you have to ask in what way are we so different it couldn’t work here? It’s not lack of money - we’re the wealthiest nation (overall - there are individual exceptions) on the planet. It’s not lack of skilled professionals - people come from all over the world to study medicine here. It’s not lack of infrastructure - we’ve got more of just about anything you care to name in a material sense. Some of our cities, for example, have more imaging equipment than entire nations. > > So tell me why you’re so certain universal coverage like in Europe won’t work here. Other than “Americans are assholes to those less fortunate than themselves”. Because, as I have stated, I believe we have a framework in place that could be leveraged. I do not believe an entire new infrastructure needs to be built. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yet you and your fellow Republicans have shot down the attempt to do just that - that was a major point of the ACA. You have already rejected what you proposed. Was that out of ignorance of what the ACA actually is or some other reason? This is where you fall off the rails. If I am not a proponent of ACA, I am Republican. It’s binary. With us or agin us. K. > [@Broomstick](#): > > All opinions are NOT equal. Someone who is ignorant, uninformed, or misinformed can form an opinion but it will not be a useful or valuable as someone who is educated, information and properly informed of the facts forming an opinion. Clearly. > [@Broomstick](#): > > From what I’ve seen of your posting so far, you seem to fall in the former and not the latter group. Source considered. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/194 "2017-01-06T18:14:27Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, but if every advanced democracy on the planet, without exception, embraces a similar set of health care principles resulting in better health care outcomes than the US at less than half the cost, and they do so in a way that health care economists have been saying for years is the only viable approach to sustainable effective health care, then ignoring it all is the epitome of willful ignorance. Why are you limiting it to democracies? _Cuba_ has better health outcomes (see [this article](http://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2014/12/22/cuba-cost-effective-healthcare/#2d36364a5990) for a start) and it’s far from wealthy or a democracy. Universal healthcare has lower costs and better outcomes whether under a capitalist or socialist economy, whether under a democracy or authoritarian government. I see zero reason why it couldn’t work in the US, other than some people being greedy, judgemental, empathetic assholes. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/195 "2017-01-06T18:18:45Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No, but if every advanced democracy on the planet, without exception, embraces a similar set of health care principles resulting in better health care outcomes than the US at less than half the cost, and they do so in a way that health care economists have been saying for years is the only viable approach to sustainable effective health care, then ignoring it all is the epitome of willful ignorance. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. I happen to think ACA is poor approach and I think implementing shit for the sake of expediency and to be like everyone else is a bad idea. Its not a or b. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/196 "2017-01-06T18:27:01Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > Because based on your posts (including later in this very post) you are on the “With us or agin us.” wagon which I think is flawed. I disagree with you. I’m not going to dress that up in nice euphemisms. While I defend your right to have your own opinion MY opinion is that YOUR opinion is wrong, stupid, and cruel. If you can’t handle someone disagreeing with you get off the internet. > [@](#): > > Because, as I have stated, I believe we have a framework in place that could be leveraged. I do not believe an entire new infrastructure needs to be built. What we need to do is not only expand something like Medicare or Medicaid but _also_ dismantle the private insurance industry. > [@](#): > > This is where you fall off the rails. If I am not a proponent of ACA, I am Republican. It’s binary. With us or agin us. K. There’s usually a strong correlation. If I guessed wrong please feel free to proclaim and party affiliation, or lack thereof. Also throw in if your capitalist, [del]communist[/del] socialist, anarchist, libertarian, or whatever. It does help if we don’t have to guess at these things. I’ve been consistently pro-UHC since I first signed on here, even way back when I worked for the health insurance industry. It’s an unnecessary layer, a parasitical middle-man. I worked for them because that was the ONLY way I could get insurance coverage for my spouse. Now… well, I live in an enlightened state (Republican, contrary to the expectations of many) where they actually make an effort to help the poor, the sick, the injured, and those belong to two or more of those categories. My health insurance is no longer tied to my workplace, which made climbing out of dire poverty much easier because it opened up more jobs I could take without causing undue hardship to the rest of the family. _It works better_ than the “pure” private health industry so many in our current Congress hold up as an ideal. My spouse was recently diagnosed with cancer. Unlike Walter White, we won’t have to cook meth to pay for his chemo. That’s the way it should be for _everyone_ in this country. The fact it isn’t should be a source of shame to Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/197 "2017-01-06T18:31:36Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > I’ll say to you what I said to **filmore**. Your opinion carries the same weight as any other citizen of this country. Whether I believe it to be true or less valid or self serving or whatever. You seem to be under the misapprehension that opinions are the same as facts. If most people are of the opinion that the sun moves around the earth, this does not make it factually true. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/198 "2017-01-06T18:32:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > MY opinion is that YOUR opinion is wrong, stupid, and cruel. If you can’t handle someone disagreeing with you get off the internet For some reason, this just cracks me up! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/199 "2017-01-06T18:37:16Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > … > > As an aside. every day you seem to edge closer to posting as the love child of a weird Der Trihs/Reeder weekend. That’s not a good thing outside of it’s relative entertainment value. Your pointless comment noted. And disregarded. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146/200 "2017-01-06T18:41:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > For some reason, this just cracks me up! 🙂 Glad to know I brought a smile to someone’s face today. You and I are usually at odds here, but I respect your right to your viewpoint of things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-repeal-of-obamacare-aca-step-bystep-inch-by-inch/776146.md?page=11)