# The Republican party is in a shambles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126 "2009-03-03T08:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/1 "2009-03-03T08:53:41Z")
The Limbaugh-Steele [spat](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/steele-apologizes-to-limbaugh-praises-his-leadership.php?ref=fp1) only confirms it ; the GOP is in a terrible state. They have received a drubbing in the last two elections and face a highly effective and popular president; you would think they would use this opportunity to take a deep breath and figure out where they have gone wrong but they seem intent on becoming even more of a joke. ``` The prevailing wisdom inside the party seems to be that they are losing only because they haven't been conservative enough and if they move further right all will be well. This is madness. They are losing because: ``` a) they are widely perceived as incompetent b) they are perceived as acting in the interests of the wealthy and not the middle-class To recover they need to pick leaders who project competence and achievement but also genuine empathy for the well-being of average voters and back that up with specific policy proposals. There are leaders who do bits and pieces of this: Romney certainly projects competence and Huckabee is quite good at speaking about economic concerns; the GOP needs leaders who can do both and some sensible policies which appeal to the independent voter. What it doesn’t need are populist gimmicks like Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber. Above all it needs less of Rush Limbaugh. The Democrats are trying to make Limbaugh the face of the Republican party and the Republicans, unbelievably, are playing into their hands. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/2 "2009-03-03T08:56:31Z")
Ain’t it grand? It looks like it will be Huckabee as the nominee in '12. No way will the Republicans nominate Romney. ---
**Author:** ![ajb867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@ajb867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajb867)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/3 "2009-03-03T11:35:56Z")
“highly effective” A little bit early to make that determination don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/4 "2009-03-03T12:10:06Z")
It’s certainly not the Democrats who give Limbaugh his power. They don’t force Republican politicians to apologize to him. They don’t circulate his rhetoric through the right wing infrastructure and up to Fox. The right has to take responsibility for their own mistakes and make their own corrections without blaming the Democrats for everything. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/5 "2009-03-03T12:11:51Z")
Democrats took power with two advantages: -in 2006, six years of incompetence and corruption from a Republican president and twelve years from a Republican congress; -In 2008, one of the savviest campaigners in our nation’s history (IMO, natch). I strongly suspect that, whatever else happens, Obama will not present the Republicans with any years of incompetence and corruption. I suspect equally strongly that if the Democrats maintain control of congress for twelve years, they’ll have just as profound a culture of corruption. In 2018, the Republicans stand a very good chance of regaining control of congress if they haven’t done so already. I suspect they’ll stay out of the White House at least until 2016 (2017 for the pedants). In terms of the second advantage, I just don’t see Republican on the national scene who can hold a candle to Obama in terms of political savvy combined with personal charisma combined with strong personal ethics. (Note that I don’t list intelligence there–while I think Obama is highly intelligent, I don’t think intelligence nets that many votes). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/6 "2009-03-03T12:14:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > twelve years from a Republican congress Hmm. This isn’t accurate, since the corruption, and certainly the incompetence, wasn’t apparent back in 1995. Still I trust y’all get my meaning. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/7 "2009-03-03T12:15:27Z")
Whistling through the graveyard. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/8 "2009-03-03T12:27:22Z")
A move by a losing party in a change-of-party election to the wing is not unusual. Goldwater in '64, McGovern in '72, Mondale in '84 are all examples. When you lose the confidence of the center of the political spectrum, you naturally try to shore yourself up with pandering to the strongest part of your political base. The real problem with the Republicans right now is that they are unable to adequately meld the two main themes they have: lower taxes and spending with “family” values. The squawking about cutting taxes has begun finally to lose some credit with the general public, as they see that it doesn’t equate to increased economic productivity, and makes it very hard to provide proper social services and infrastructure. And it isn’t like the Republicans were eager to reduce government spending when they had control of the trough in Washington, D.C. Many of the people in the central part of the political spectrum who are eager to see the conservative social message adopted find all the emphasis on “cut taxes” to be distracting from a more important goal: getting government to support policies that encourage “traditional” values. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/9 "2009-03-03T12:50:03Z")
Be careful in attributing too much to Limbaugh. Some of this meme just may be due to Emanuel, and others, trying to spread it in order to discredit the party. In just the same way, GOP mouthpieces have traditionally tried to play up Al Sharpton’s influence with the Dems. The issue for the GOP isn’t necessarily its getting its leadership from an entertainer, it’s that they are seriously espousing the same attitudes that the entertainer espouses for entertainment purposes. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/10 "2009-03-03T13:22:18Z")
Statement released to the press from RNC head Michael Steele: _“It both smells good and tastes wonderful.”_ This is great. Simply great. I never thought I would fall in love with Rush. He is going to do for the Republican Party in 2012 what Barry Goldwater did for it in 1964. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/11 "2009-03-03T13:57:34Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > When you lose the confidence of the center of the political spectrum, you naturally try to shore yourself up with pandering to the strongest part of your political base. > > The real problem with the Republicans right now is that they are unable to adequately meld the two main themes they have: lower taxes and spending with “family” values. The squawking about cutting taxes has begun finally to lose some credit with the general public, as they see that it doesn’t equate to increased economic productivity, and makes it very hard to provide proper social services and infrastructure. I like your posts a lot. But one element in your post above highlights the work the Republicans need to do on their message. The Bush tax cuts had nothing to do with increasing deficits. Deficits = Revenue - Spending. Tax Rates only affect revenue. Revenue went UP after the Bush Tax Cuts. Progressivity in tax receipts also went UP after the Bush Tax Cuts. Tables 3 and 5 below, left-most column. [http://taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/23408.html](http://taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/23408.html) Everybody from Barack Obama to the NY Times keeps repeating the same line you do. Until the Republicans coherently argue the opposite, more people will become less and less familiar with Mr Laffer, and more familiar with how FDR ‘Saved Us’ from the Great Depression. Supposedly. My advice to the Republicans: 1. Drop the Religious Right and Rush Limbaugh. They drive the center over to the Democrats. Enough of the social conservatives and ditto-heads will vote for you anyway. 90% turnout amongst a segment that is 20-25% of the voting populace isn’t going to cut it anymore. Settle for 60-70% turnout and grab more of the center. 2. Make a much more coherent argument for growth. Couple it with an explanation of how government regulation chokes job creation. This has to be more than ‘lower taxes’. 3. Develop and articulate small-government approaches to education and healthcare reform. They are possible. You’re going to lose the teachers’ unions. But you never had them anyway. 4. Stay silent and/or remain neutral on the environment for the next election cycle or two. The ‘Drill, Baby Drill!’ thing should have embarrassed you. Even if you have reasonable approaches to these issues, you’ve lost credibility on them for awhile. The economy will probably trump the environment in the voters’ minds for awhile, so this may not be that important anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/12 "2009-03-03T14:01:55Z")
Here’s a good list of quotes from Conservative blogs someone posted on the Daily Kos. [http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/1/12152/77957/475/703299](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/1/12152/77957/475/703299) It’s pretty hilarious. Republicans are livid and Democrats are giddy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/13 "2009-03-03T14:08:16Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > The Bush tax cuts had nothing to do with increasing deficits. > > Deficits = Revenue - Spending. Tax Rates only affect revenue. How can it have nothing to do with deficits if it is half of your equation? > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Revenue went UP after the Bush Tax Cuts. Progressivity in tax receipts also went UP after the Bush Tax Cuts. Here’s [FactCheck](http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/supply-side_spin.html) on that assertion. In particular: > [@](#): > > “Federal revenue is lower today than it would have been without the tax cuts,” Alan D. Viard of the conservative American Enterprise Institute told the Washington Post last October. Viard, who worked in the Treasury Department’s Office of Tax Analysis and the White House’s Council of Economic Advisers under President Bush, told [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org) that “nobody can absolutely prove that.” Proof would require time travel and a reversal of tax policy. “But among economists, there’s no dispute.” ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/14 "2009-03-03T14:16:45Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How can it have nothing to do with deficits if it is half of your equation?Here’s [FactCheck](http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/supply-side_spin.html) on that assertion. In particular: It could only affect the equation if Revenues went down. Revenues did not go down. Revenues went up. How can a ‘Fact’ (from [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org)) exist when, by the authors own admission, it is impossible to run a controlled test in two alternative universes? That is an opinion. Or perhaps a hypothesis. It is not a fact. The only fact is the actual tax receipts. Which went up. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/15 "2009-03-03T14:38:43Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Ain’t it grand? > > It looks like it will be Huckabee as the nominee in '12. No way will the Republicans nominate Romney. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I read, or see, or something that Romney won the CPAC straw poll indicating he may very well be their pick in 2012? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/16 "2009-03-03T14:43:18Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > It could only affect the equation if Revenues went down. If your equation is “Deficit = Revenue - Spending”, then Revenue will always affect the equation. Taxes are 98% of the government’s revenues, so they will always affect the equation, up or down. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/17 "2009-03-03T14:44:39Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I read, or see, or something that Romney won the CPAC straw poll indicating he may very well be their pick in 2012? You saw that but it doesn’t matter, the election is still three and a half years away. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/18 "2009-03-03T14:47:24Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > They have received a drubbing in the last two elections and face a highly effective and popular president… I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. A wise person would wait a while before declaring that he’s a highly effective President. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/19 "2009-03-03T14:48:52Z")
True enough. But it seems to me there \*is \*a way the Republicans may nominate Romney. I was just addressing \*\*The Second Stone’s \*\*statement that it would never happen. It seems it could. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126/20 "2009-03-03T14:50:03Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > True enough. But it seems to me there \*is \*a way the Republicans may nominate Romney. I was just addressing \*\*The Second Stone’s \*\*statement that it would never happen. It seems it could. Well I’ll throw out my prediction. Huckabee/Romney '12 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-party-is-in-a-shambles/488126.md?page=2)