# The Republican Worldview: A Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820 "2012-06-01T22:19:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![supery00n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@supery00n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supery00n)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/41 "2012-06-03T14:56:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But in answer to your further question, no, it is not possible to construct a society in which everyone agrees everyone is getting what they deserve. Those at the bottom will always resent those above them, and will always be able to come up with reasons why it isn’t their fault they are poor, and it’s no fair. That’s human nature. > > Regards, > Shodan I see, I see. I’d like to ask a follow-up question. If what you said about human nature is true, which I believe is more likely to be so than not, then does that mean that meritocracy, assuming a definition of meritocracy as that society in which everyone agrees that everyone is getting what they what they deserve, must be a utopia, provided that the human nature that causes at least some people in a society to disagree that their society is a meritocracy (as defined) remains unchanged? Also, is that definition of meritocracy, in your opinion or general knowledge, a “straw man” in that either the definition is actually not the “true” definition of meritocracy, or misses so many points that it’s really inadequate? I don’t want to be talking about the implications of meritocracy if I’m actually wrong on what it actually is! If so, what would be your definition of that word? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/42 "2012-06-03T15:23:52Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Nobody opposes aiding those who truly “_can’t_ do X, Y, and/or Z.” … but conservatives are a lot more inclined to suspect that it’s a matter of “don’t want to,” or at least “don’t want to if it means giving up other things.” It’s one thing to say “I want a job;” it’s another to say “I want a job enough that I’m willing to clean toilets or work weekends or give up partying.” > > I don’t think most Republicans care if someone chooses to be poor; I surely don’t. The issue is making self-destructive, poverty-creating choices and then making demands, via government, on other people. When you ask me to pay for your rent, I might be willing to help, but I’m first going to ask why you can’t pay it yourself and expect a good answer. > > I was devoted liberal at 18; I changed in large part because I worked for several years with the homeless, and saw up close the way the (liberal/government-run) groups I worked for refused to allow people to make their own choices and live with the consequences. Even when clients deliberately, obviously made self-destructive choices, the liberals I worked with insisted it couldn’t possibly be their fault. > > The irony of these kinds of threads is that it is Liberals, not conservatives, who tend to see everything as boiling down to money. > > My father, a very staunch Republican, chose a low-paying career. He did so because he felt it was a calling, and that he was doing the right thing. He doesn’t think of himself as a failure because he never made more than 50k in his life, and he doesn’t feel entitled to some kind of redistribution: he made his choice, and I don’t think he envies Donald Trump or George Soros. > > The most hard-core Republican I know lives in one of the most expensive cities in America, relying on his 35k and his wife’s barista income to raise their kids. They might qualify for aid AFAIK, but he’d be damned if he’d take it. > > I’m a libertarian, but I chose to spend most of my career as a teacher. I’ve never made money, but I’ve never complained … because _I chose_ to spend most of my career as a teacher. **Furt’s** post is a good example of what we liberals mean when we say you conservatives think people “deserve” their economic situations–you guys tend to think that a person’s economic situation is a result of his own choices, while us guys tend to think that a person’s economic situation is a result of choices plus luck. (“Tend”.) **Smiling Bandit** said he doesn’t think this, but I’m not sure I believe him! I need to search for his past posts to see if what he’s said in the past matches what he says now. My impression is that it doesn’t–but I certainly could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/43 "2012-06-03T18:29:06Z")
> [@supery00n](#): > > I see, I see. I’d like to ask a follow-up question. If what you said about human nature is true, which I believe is more likely to be so than not, then does that mean that meritocracy, assuming a definition of meritocracy as that society in which everyone agrees that everyone is getting what they what they deserve, must be a utopia, provided that the human nature that causes at least some people in a society to disagree that their society is a meritocracy (as defined) remains unchanged? There will never be a society in which everyone agrees they got what they deserve. > [@](#): > > Also, is that definition of meritocracy, in your opinion or general knowledge, a “straw man” in that either the definition is actually not the “true” definition of meritocracy, or misses so many points that it’s really inadequate? I don’t want to be talking about the implications of meritocracy if I’m actually wrong on what it actually is! If so, what would be your definition of that word? I don’t know, I don’t care, and it has nothing to do with the discussion. The straw man in the OP is > [@](#): > > …to the modern GOP, the rich deserve all their wealth; the poor likewise deserve their poverty, and should therefore not be assisted by the state. not in any definition of meritocracy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/44 "2012-06-03T18:51:50Z")
There is no illusion of meritocracy, and Republicans would not have it so. That’s why conservatives abhor the estate tax. That said, I don’t think most conservatives think there is something inherently wrong with poor people or that they deserve their lot or whatever. That sort of assumption stifles debate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/45 "2012-06-03T19:02:16Z")
And Democrats believe there should be no illusion of ownership, of anything - everything you have belongs to the state, and you should be grateful for whatever they deign to allow you to keep. As long as we are stuffing straw men. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/46 "2012-06-03T19:56:57Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Furt’s** post is a good example of what we liberals mean when we say you conservatives think people “deserve” their economic situations–you guys tend to think that a person’s economic situation is a result of his own choices, while us guys tend to think that a person’s economic situation is a result of choices plus luck. (“Tend”.) I agree that I tend to view a person’s economic situation is generally the result of their own choices. I suppose luck plays a part if you mean the sort of luck as to what family you’re born into, but that stretches the definition past usefulness. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/47 "2012-06-04T00:29:12Z")
I for one reject meritocracy as aristocratic. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/48 "2012-06-04T00:32:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that I tend to view a person’s economic situation is generally the result of their own choices. I suppose luck plays a part if you mean the sort of luck as to what family you’re born into, but that stretches the definition past usefulness. :dubious: So, you’ve never seen someone lose out on success just because of competition? How many aspiring retail entrepreneurs get to be Sam Walton? For that matter, know many humanities Ph.D.'s? I suppose there is supposed to be some central clearing house that tells us whether or not we have a chance in a chosen career. Well, there’s not. We live in chaos, we gamble with our lives, sometimes we listen to people who tell us to take a chance. That’s about luck, or the hope of luck. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/49 "2012-06-04T01:17:12Z")
[quote=“Frylock, post:42, topic:623820”] > [@](#): > > **Smiling Bandit** said he doesn’t think this, but I’m not sure I believe him! I need to search for his past posts to see if what he’s said in the past matches what he says now. My impression is that it doesn’t–but I certainly could be wrong. Hmm… how do I put it? I don’t see the divide you do. Yeah, you make choices. But it doesn’t have anything to do cosmic worth or “just desserts.” With hard work and a little luck, you can do better. That doesn’t mean you deserve, or dont deserve, to win the lottery (take that literally or metaphorically as you please). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/50 "2012-06-04T01:20:32Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > :dubious: So, you’ve never seen someone lose out on success just because of competition? How many aspiring retail entrepreneurs get to be Sam Walton? For that matter, know many humanities Ph.D.'s? > > I suppose there is supposed to be some central clearing house that tells us whether or not we have a chance in a chosen career. Well, there’s not. We live in chaos, we gamble with our lives, sometimes we listen to people who tell us to take a chance. That’s about luck, or the hope of luck. No, I don’t agree. We don’t live in chaos. We cannot guarantee success, but we can take steps to minimize the effect of bad luck and maximize the effect of good luck, and thus vitiate their effects. I check my spare tire and oil and tire pressure every time I gas up. I might get a flat. But if it happens, I know I’ll have a spare ready. I have a friend who had to miss a job interview because of a flat, and a flat spare. “When did you last check the spare?” “Uh.. when I bought the car?” But that event was “bad luck,” which no one could foresee. Now, other things can happen, of course. An accident can disable the car no matter how peppy the spare is. But the point is not to eliminate such events. It’s to make choices that minimize the exposure. Without exception, in my experience, the people that talk about life being a confusing chaotic mess are the ones that don’t handle the boring mundane little tasks like checking oil and changing filters. But then, when something happens, it’s bad luck, and who can be held responsible for bad luck, after all? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/51 "2012-06-04T01:49:06Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > How do you feel about Romney’s plan to increase military spending and pay for it by lowering taxes on the wealthiest? Or his support for a Constitutional amendment prohibiting states from allowing gay marriage? I don’t like either one. I’d like to see military spending cut by over 50%. > [@](#): > > Or Obama saying that the wealthiest should pay at least as high a tax rate as the middle class? I agree with it; though I also think it’s a phony issue: notwithstanding cherry-picked anecdotes, the vast, vast majority of wealthy people pay plenty in taxes. Is this some kind of test to see if I’m _really_ a libertarian? Do I pass, or do you need to hear about my views on the drug war? And is any of it relevant to the thread? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/52 "2012-06-04T01:57:39Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Furt’s** post is a good example of what we liberals mean when we say you conservatives think people “deserve” their economic situations–you guys tend to think that a person’s economic situation is a result of his own choices, while us guys tend to think that a person’s economic situation is a result of choices plus luck. (“Tend”.) No, this is completely wrong. Don’t know where you get this. Of course everyone has good and bad luck. A difference no doubt lies in what to do about someone’s bad luck. Liberals tend to have great deal more stock in the idea that the larger society has an obligation to make everyone’s luck even out, and conservatives are more apt to accept the fact that life is inherently unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/53 "2012-06-04T02:02:47Z")
> [@](#): > > No wonder Republicans are focused on dismantling the social contract, cutting taxes for the rich, and blocking assistance to those in need; it is the natural byproduct of a twisted worldview with little basis in reality. That entire article is the byproduct of a twisted worldview with little basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/54 "2012-06-04T02:10:14Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Liberals tend to have great deal more stock in the idea that the larger society has an obligation to make everyone’s luck even out, and conservatives are more apt to accept the fact that life is inherently unfair. I don’t know about others but when I see that I always reply that: Of course life is unfair, so pay up more taxes than the poor to make a better safety net. So if that is indeed a fact that life is unfair, I think then that wealthy conservatives should not complain much when the unfairness of higher taxes comes to them. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/55 "2012-06-04T02:28:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I don’t know about others but when I see that I always reply that: > > Of course life is unfair, so pay up more taxes than the poor to make a better safety net. > > So if that is indeed a fact that life is unfair, I think then that wealthy conservatives should not complain much when the unfairness of higher taxes comes to them. Despite Liberal rhetoric, I don’t hear any serious people on the right saying they want to switch to a _re_gressive tax scheme. Despite Conservative rhetoric, I don’t hear any serious people on the left advocating that _only_ the wealthy should be paying taxes. Especially in the US, our political disagreements tend to be within a very narrow band on a very, very wide potential continuum. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/56 "2012-06-04T02:48:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No, this is completely wrong. Don’t know where you get this. Every word of your post that I quoted was designed to put focus on the way that people’s economic situations are results of their own choices. When I say you, as a conservative, think people “deserve” to be where they are economically, that’s what I’m talking about–you tend to think that people are where they are because of their own choices. This is what your post says. > [@](#): > > Of course everyone has good and bad luck. **Bricker** denies that this has any significance, and in another thread **Chessic Sense** outright denied it. So it may not be as “of course” as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/57 "2012-06-04T02:50:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I don’t agree. We don’t live in chaos. > > We cannot guarantee success, but we can take steps to minimize the effect of bad luck and maximize the effect of good luck, and thus vitiate their effects. > > I check my spare tire and oil and tire pressure every time I gas up. > > I might get a flat. But if it happens, I know I’ll have a spare ready. > > I have a friend who had to miss a job interview because of a flat, and a flat spare. > > “When did you last check the spare?” > > “Uh.. when I bought the car?” > > But that event was “bad luck,” which no one could foresee. > > Now, other things can happen, of course. An accident can disable the car no matter how peppy the spare is. But the point is not to eliminate such events. It’s to make choices that minimize the exposure. > > Without exception, in my experience, the people that talk about life being a confusing chaotic mess are the ones that don’t handle the boring mundane little tasks like checking oil and changing filters. But then, when something happens, it’s bad luck, and who can be held responsible for bad luck, after all? I have never checked to see if my spare was flat, because I have had the bad luck to have had no idea spares could even go flat while simply sitting in the trunk, short of massive trauma. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/58 "2012-06-04T02:56:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Without exception, in my experience, the people that talk about life being a confusing chaotic mess are the ones that don’t handle the boring mundane little tasks like checking oil and changing filters. But then, when something happens, it’s bad luck, and who can be held responsible for bad luck, after all? This is consistent with what you said in another thread–that you keep close and detailed tabs of your checking account down to the penny. You were amazed that anyone doesn’t do this. I’ve gotta locate that research that seems to show that the detail-oriented people actually tend to do _worse_ (financially) than the “round to the nearest significant digit” people. 😉 Anyway I myself tend to see “knowing how to make good choices” as itself involving quite a bit of luck–a result of birth, upbringing and contacts. Let me be clear I don’t think this is something that it would make much sense to shape political policy around–I’m just illustrating a difference I see in how conservatives I know and read, and liberals I know and read, seem to see things. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/59 "2012-06-04T02:58:08Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Despite Liberal rhetoric, I don’t hear any serious people on the right saying they want to switch to a _re_gressive tax scheme. Despite Conservative rhetoric, I don’t hear any serious people on the left advocating that _only_ the wealthy should be paying taxes. I was not talking about only the wealthy paying, So stop the strawman there. And it seems that you have not paid attention at all at what the tea party controlled house is doing. Unless you are actually saying that the tea party is not serious… But, luckily life is not fair and the Senate is blocking their hare brained ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820/60 "2012-06-04T03:03:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Somewhat of a tangent, but… > > Suppose we lived in a very different society where everyone had truly equal opportunity from birth, ie, all children were raised by the government so no one ever inherited anything, no one ever had their parents pay for their college (and conversely no one was ever neglected by a crack-addicted single mother). In a society like that, I’d be MUCH more receptive to the whole “well, the poor people are poor because they don’t have jobs and are lazy, why should my stuff be taken to give to them” argument. (I’m not saying I wish we lived in such a society, or that even in a society like that I’d just let people starve in the street, but I feel like a lot of Republican philosophy would make more sense in that world.) Your degree of receptiveness to that argument would make sense in a world where anyone was actually making that argument in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republican-worldview-a-question/623820.md?page=4)