# The Republicans are Fucking Hypocrites **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2000, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802 "2000-11-11T17:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/21 "2000-11-11T23:39:13Z")
> [@](#): > > In order for the hypocrisy charge to stick, the ballots and counting mechanisms have to be identical in both states. I don’t know what the ballots in Texas look like, or how the machine reads them, so it is very possible that what would make sense in one area would not make sense in another. No. The argument of the Bush camp in this lawsuit, and in their public statements, has been that a manual recount is an inherently flawed and subjective process which cannot be relied upon to give a fair result. If that is his belief, then it is hypocritical for him to make that very procedure the preferred method of recount in the state of Texas. If that is not his belief, then it is hypocritical of him to claim that position both in federal court and in public statements. > [@](#): > > However, would this not make Daley and Jackson front line hypocrites, too, for protesting as ‘confusing’ a ballot nearly identical to the one they used in Illinois? Possibly, though I have not seen a detailed view of the ballot in question. As I understand it, the pages in question contained retention votes for judges, which might represent a significant shift from the format of teh presidential ballot (yes/no for each candidate rather than selecting one candidate among many). Perhaps not, but I would want to see a detailed view before passing judgment. Even so, the charge of hypocrisy makes sense only if Jackson has explicitely defended either the specific Cook County ballot or the butterfly format itself. Daley has defended the specifics of teh Cook County ballot as being sufficiently distinct from teh PBC example to avoid a similar confusion. I do not find that argument sompelling on its face, but without seeing both in detail I would refrain from charging hypocrisy. Bush, in contrast, has explicitely lambasted as so inaccurate as to be unconstitutional a method of counting ballots which he himself signed into law as preferential for recounts in the state of Texas. It is difficult to recall a clearer example of hypocrisy in action. ---
**Author:** ![Amulet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Amulet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amulet)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/22 "2000-11-11T23:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi \* > The argument of the Bush camp in this lawsuit, and in their public statements, has been that a manual recount is an inherently flawed and subjective process which cannot be relied upon to give a fair result. I have not read/heard the statements, so I cannot speak to this. For the sake of argument, I will go along with this assessment. However, having just watched the press conference on television, there is definite ambiguity in the manner in which the workers are judging the ballots. I remain thoroughly unconvinced that this process will produce a more accurate recount of the ballots. The machines read ballots in an identical matter, while humans will not, it will be a judgment call. If Texas uses a similar method (that is, a punch card), then Bush at best lax in paying attention to what he signs into law. At worst, a hypocrite (though I must say I do find plenty of that going around). I’m sure it’s been discussed in one of the myriad threads about this, but does Texas use a punch card? ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/23 "2000-11-12T00:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > § 214.042. Counting Method for Recount > > (a) A person requesting a recount of electronic voting system ballots has a choice of: > > (1) an electronic recount using the same program as the original count; > > (2) an electronic recount using a corrected program under Section 214.046©, if obtainable; or > > (3) a manual recount as provided by Subchapter A. > > (b) The same counting method must be used in all precincts included in the recount document for which the same program was used in the original count. > > © Unless a different counting method is requested, the ballots shall be counted electronically using the same program as the original count. > > (d) Except as otherwise provided by this subchapter, a request for a specific counting method must be made in the recount document, specifying the precincts to which the request applies if it does not apply to all precincts in which electronic voting system ballots are to be recounted. > > (e) After a recount document is approved, the person requesting the recount may change the counting method specified in the document by filing with the appropriate recount supervisor a written request for a different method before the supervisor gives notice of the time and place for beginning the recount. If the requested change is to a manual recount, the request must be accompanied by a cashier’s check payable to the recount coordinator in the amount of the difference between the amount of the deposit for a manual recount and the amount for an electronic recount. > > (f) If a recount supervisor who receives a request for a change to a manual recount under Subsection (e) is not also the recount coordinator, the supervisor shall notify the coordinator of the change and shall deliver the accompanying check to the coordinator. > > Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 211, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1986. The earlier cite just specifies the priority if different types of recounts are requested. Just FYI. Does this make Bush a hypocrite? Hardly. As has been said (and certainly should be apparent), Texas law is of little relevance. I have no clue why the other provision was enacted. I have no doubt that it was read only by flunkies on legislative staff and the Governor’s staff. The bill could have been making generally technical changes, or it could have been part of some political deal. But, just as several posters don’t begrudge Mr. Gore for using whatever’s available to press his advantage (including bringing up the irrelevant fact that he won (maybe) the popular vote), why shouldn’t Mr. Bush be allowed to do the same? Under the law of the relevant jurisdiction? ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/24 "2000-11-12T00:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > At worst, a hypocrite (though I must say I do find plenty of that going around). And yet rather than express outrage you seem determined to defend it, at least in this case. Bush’s hypocrisy in this runs to many levels, anyway. The Texas law is just one of them. Are you going to look for ways to excuse each of the others as well? > [@](#): > > As has been said (and certainly should be apparent), Texas law is of little relevance. I have no clue why the other provision was enacted. I have no doubt that it was read only by flunkies on legislative staff and the Governor’s staff. The bill could have been making generally technical changes, or it could have been part of some political deal. Bush is attacking a method as unconstitutional that he signed into law as governor of Texas. The Texas law has little relevance to the question before the federal court. It has a great deal of relevance to the question of whether Bush is a hypocrite. It is not the only evidence of his hypocrisy on this issue, of course. It is only the one his defenders seem to have latched onto as easy to defend. Personally, I find the defense “Well, he probably didn’t even know the law he was signing” to be of little comfort. > [@](#): > > But, just as several posters don’t begrudge Mr. Gore for using whatever’s available to press his advantage (including bringing up the irrelevant fact that he won (maybe) the popular vote), why shouldn’t Mr. Bush be allowed to do the same? Under the law of the relevant jurisdiction? Well, i have never brought up the popular vote. Neither have I stated that Bush should not be allowed to apply to the federal courts for redress. It is absolutrely his right. I have simply pointed out that his choosing to do so, and in particular the specifics of teh suit that his campaign has filed, betray a clear hypocrisy. I have also objected to his attempts to deny citizens of my county, perhaps including myself, the right to have our votes counted according to the method specified by Florida law. ---
**Author:** ![Amulet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Amulet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amulet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/25 "2000-11-12T01:08:09Z")
I’m not defending it, Spiritus. I did not vote for Bush. If by some bizarre twist of fate a re-vote is reordered, it would have to be a statewide re-vote and I probably would vote for Bush in that case. However, I am just not sure that this is an example of hypocrisy, because as I mentioned previously the manual recount in this instance is coming down to a judgment call on the part of a virtually untrained worker. **If** Texas has a punch ballot, then yes, he is a hypocrite. If it does not, then this is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/26 "2000-11-12T01:46:25Z")
A manual recount will **always** involve the judgment of one or more human beings. Bush is a hypocrite for supporting the method in Texas while attacking as unconstitutional the method in Florida. He is also a hypocrite for launching a federal suit after criticizing the Gore campaign for considering a similar action. He is also a hypocrite for attempting to use a federal court to override the Florida election laws, since he has repeatedly argued that the federal government should allow the states to manage their own affairs. He is also a hypocrite for charging that the citizens of Palm Beach County cannot be trusted to count votes fairly and accurately after repeatedly stating during teh campaign that the difference between himself and Gore was that he “trusted the American people”. He is also a hypocrite for calling a manual count so inherently erroneous as to be unconstitutional now after his campaign accepted a manual count of votes in Seminaole County–a count which resulted in his gaining votes. He is also a hypocrite for objecting to a manual count in Florida counties while trunpeting the new totals coming out of New Mexico, totals that are the result of a manual count. Now, up tothis point I have been mildly critical of both campaigns for their rhetoric and behavior after the election. But when one condidate wants to override the laws of my state and potentially prevent my vote from being accurately counted, I get upset. When that position is rife with hypocricy, on multiple levels, I get disgusted. If this is an example of the honor and integrity that Bush will “restore to the White House”, should the certified results favor him, then I get depressed. I am not particularly fond of Gore, either, but he has followed and abided by the election laws of Florida and, while I have objected to some of the rhetoric coming from his campaign since election day, I have seen no example of such blatant hypocrisy from the Gore camp. Both candidates are guilty of partisanship, arrogance, misleading statements, inflamatory rhetoric, and placing their personal inteests above a calm accordance with the procedures outlined in Florida law. Gore, however, has managed to do so by only looking petty and occassionally silly. Bush has made a mockery of some of the principal tenets of his campaign and a farce of his protestations of personal integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/27 "2000-11-12T01:50:08Z")
BTW – the judgment call is must be agreed upon by two workers and accepted by a judge. The examination is conducted in an environment open to the press, the public, and representatives of both campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/28 "2000-11-12T05:04:31Z")
How ironic. The same people who are for “states’ rights” now want to circumvent it with: 1. getting a federal judge to order closing voting booths with people waiting outside to vote, when many of the booths were fixed after up to 5 hours of idleness. 2. the request to stop the recount. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/29 "2000-11-12T05:12:53Z")
Stoid id say Gores numerous position changes to get New York and California for a start. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/30 "2000-11-12T06:09:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*Stoid id say Gores numerous position changes to get New York and California for a start. \*\* Care to give me some cites? A lot of people say this, but I don’t ever hear details. ---
**Author:** ![Sapphire\_Bullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@Sapphire\_Bullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapphire_Bullet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/31 "2000-11-12T08:51:43Z")
AFAIK, Texas does not use a punch ballot. I have only seen ballots for a couple counties, but none of my Texas friends have used them either in their respective home counties. I know Tarrant uses a format similar to scantron/fill in the bubble, and I think Travis does also. What I find interesting is Jesse Jackson decrying the use of the butterfly ballot as confusing and unfair, even though his son won election with that ballot. Even though it was designed by a Democrat, even though it was approved by both parties. It was used in '96 without this uproar, and a more complicated version was used successfully in Daley’s own Cook county. Am I the only one who thinks its ludicrous that these people had so much trouble with the ballot but didn’t request help from an election official?? If I’m not mistaken, you can request a new ballot if you overvote, or if you don’t understand how to record your vote. Wexler claims he witnessed people in “hysterics” as they exited the polling places. That’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/32 "2000-11-12T09:27:52Z")
_crawls out from under her rock_ Whoever ends up winning the election, don’t blame me, I voted Libertarian. Having said that, I think the Bush camp’s calling for recalls in New Mexico, et al, smacks of a third grader saying “Oh, yeah, well if you’re going to call for a recount, I’m going to, too, so there.” I also think that his filing for an injunction against a hand recount that could potentially correct mistakes made by a machine, and which could potentially favor Gore demonstrated that he is out to win by any means, fair or foul. If a computer glitch could hand him an ill-gotten victory, so be it. I prefer Gore as the lesser of two evils. _crawls back under her rock_ ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/33 "2000-11-12T09:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > I also think that his filing for an injunction against a hand recount that could potentially correct mistakes made by a machine, and which could potentially favor Gore demonstrated that he is out to win by any means, fair or foul. If a computer glitch could hand him an ill-gotten victory, so be it. From what I have heard (on the press conference held by the Palm Beach Election Board in the wee hours) that this hand count will detect votes made by _human error._ Not machine error. They were really clear on this during the press conference. These ballots did not register with the machines because the voters did not punch through properly, did not follow the voting instructions properly. So, while I think Bush has made many missteps, I think one of his biggest missteps is not insisting on a hand count in several Republican-intensive Florida counties, since that is what Gore has done. Most assuredly, there would be many ballots in other Florida counties that had the same human error - where the voter did not push through the ballot properly. And in these counties, most likely there would be more votes found for Bush than for Gore. Just like in Palm Beach, there will be more votes found for Gore than for Bush. I think if we _really_ wanted a totally impartial and fair vote count, they should go through _every_ county and do a hand count. But that would be an utter nightmare. So what we have now is a hand count in some more Democratic-intensive counties. Which, undoubtedly, will uncover more “human error” ballots in favor of Gore. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/34 "2000-11-12T12:15:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I also think that his filing for an injunction against a hand recount that could potentially correct mistakes made by a machine, and which could potentially favor Gore demonstrated that he is out to win by any means, fair or foul. If a computer glitch could hand him an ill-gotten victory, so be it. Keep in mind that when it comes down to deciding which votes should be thrown out, or which ones mean what, it’s a very subjective process. For example, partially-punched selections… supposedly, the committee has advocated the “Sunlight Test”, where you check to see if a ray of light passes through the hole, but this had it’s own problems (I don’t know what), and the hand-counting had to start over. This whole “let’s get as accurate as possible” stuff is a big crock of bullshit. It scraps inaccuracy for subjectivity… no matter how impartial the counting crew may be, they’ll always be asking themselves “maybe” for each ballot, not just “yes” or “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Amulet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Amulet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amulet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/35 "2000-11-12T12:33:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sapphire Bullet \* > AFAIK, Texas does not use a punch ballot. I have only seen ballots for a couple counties, but none of my Texas friends have used them either in their respective home counties. I know Tarrant uses a format similar to scantron/fill in the bubble, and I think Travis does also. If this is the case, then there is no hypocrisy on this particular point. A manual recount of a scantron ballot has little room for error. As has been shown on the news, a manual recount of a punch ballot is very different. A machine will read all punch ballots identically – it has a standard by which it judges all ballots. Unless you have one human judging every single ballot, it will vary from person to person. Wexler’s comments about hysteria outside the voting booths is a crock of horseshit. (And I’m not surprised.) If that were the case, why wasn’t any mention made of that until the early hours on Wednesday morning? The Democrats have had to actively pursue this, down to soliciting affadavits in local strip malls. That said, I’m most displeased with the fact that people on both sides have filed legal action regarding this election. We have enough judicial activism as it is, I do not believe that this is an appropriate move. There has been no voter fraud, prior Florida case history shows that mere confusion on the part of a voter is not cause for overturning an election. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/36 "2000-11-12T12:53:39Z")
Bush is not a hypocrite just because Texas has a law mandating manual recounts when necessary. He is not a hypocrite even if he is the one who signed that bill into law (compromise is often necessary in politics). He would be a hypocrite if he were well-known for sponsoring the bill, or for pushing it through the Texas legislature, or for taking a great deal of credit for the bill. I don’t think hypocrasy has been demonstrated here. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/37 "2000-11-12T15:04:40Z")
All this attention to the details of Texas ballots and no comments upon teh many other ways in which Bush’s lawsuit demonstrates hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/38 "2000-11-12T15:10:01Z")
> [@](#): > > He is not a hypocrite even if he is the one who signed that bill into law (compromise is often necessary in politics). He would be a hypocrite if he were well-known for sponsoring the bill, or for pushing it through the Texas legislature, or for taking a great deal of credit for the bill. This is an interesting standard. Remember, Bush is challenging this method on constitutional grounds. Are you saying that if Bush signed a law preventing private ownership of handguns, for example, it would be all right so long as he didn’t take a great deal of credit for it? ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/39 "2000-11-12T16:20:33Z")
Spiritus– I’m saying that–given your scenario–Bush would be a hypocrite if he actively promotes banning private ownership of guns in Texas, and then tries to protect gun ownership in Forida. He has to solidly advocate both sides of the issue (at separate times/places(?)) rather than merely being the guy that signs a bill even if he doesn’t like all of its provisions. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2000, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802/40 "2000-11-12T16:47:21Z")
So you don’t consider a chief executive signing a bill into law to be sufficient demonstration of tolerance, if not active support? If Bush believed this method was unconstitutional, then he failed directly in his sworn duty to uphold the laws of his state and nation. If he does not, then he is lying now. You seem to say that only active advocacy is hypocritical when compared to active attack. I point out that tolerance is also antithetical to active attack. If he could tolerate the method in Texas, which he has demonstrably done, then he should tolerate the method in Florida. That he allows self-interest to override integrity by no means makes him unique in the political spectrum. But it does make him a hypocrite, particularly when viewed in th econtext of several of his favorite campaign positions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-are-fucking-hypocrites/40802.md?page=3)