# The Republicans Can STFU About "Job Creators" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081 "2011-09-21T16:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/141 "2011-09-24T19:58:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Trickle up. Hiring people to do infrastructure work is putting money in the hands of workers. The very people who spend, thereby generating demand. > Trickle down is cutting taxes for the wealthy with a dream that they will for some unknown reason, start hiring people. Both claim they will increase demand. But tax cuts to the wealthy do not. Thirty years of proof is there to see. > The infrastructure work should be done only by American workers with American products to maximize the economic benefits. I guarantee the Chinese would scream if we did that. I guarantee the companies would want to buy cheaper foreign products to increase their profits. > Money in the hands of workers results in an economic multiplier. They create other jobs . They address demand, the thing that is missing from trickle down. Giving tax holidays, breaks, incentives etc… to companies when it has been shown to not significantly increase hiring is trickle down. Look at any of the current “jobs” bills, they re not talking about public works. Obama’s jobs bill is trickle down. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/142 "2011-09-24T20:02:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Roberts Rules of Order is a guide to running meetings, not debates. > Lincoln-Douglas debate format is mainly used by high schools, and is not really used here on the SDMB. > > Being “rude” is also forbidden in this particular forum (Great Debates). If you feel that I have been rude to you, I invite you to click “report this post”, and have the moderators adjudicate on your behalf. > > No, a red herring is a tactic designed to distract attention away from the original point. My point was on topic. Yes, my original point as clarified is that, outside of their role as a consumer, government is limited in their ability to create jobs. Your refusal to even address that question after I clarified my position is textbook red herring tactics. I will assume you concede the point and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/143 "2011-09-24T20:07:43Z")
You assume wrongly. But feel free to move on. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/144 "2011-09-24T20:11:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Your environmental concerns have nothing to do with the fact that the federal government can and does stimulate the economy by creating jobs through spending on infrastructure projects like Hoover Dam and the interstate highway system. And the fact that infrastructure spending created jobs has nothing to do with my claim that the government has limited ability to “create jobs” through jobs legislation that provides tax incentives, tax breaks or monetary rewards. Meaning Rick Perry did not “create” one million jobs in Texas. If you look back I say my concern is that we reduce tax intake with these plans and they do not produce jobs. This reduces the money available to do core government services that do create jobs. You can not claim that the current Obama jobs bill is any way related to the interstate system or hoover dam, it is NOT a public works system. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/145 "2011-09-24T20:13:29Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > No, not China, [Canada](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/flaherty-warns-against-fighting-protectionist-measures/article1173315/). > > Or maybe they simply can’t find the product in the US? > > What if the US made product is overpriced shit? Should we waste tax money on crap that won’t last? Or buy the best valued product available? > > A government program to build windmills sounds great on paper, but where do you buy the windmills from? The best are Vestas, the only US ones I know of are from GE. > > So what do you think of GE? They don’t even pay corporate taxes. Your plan is to give tax money to GE, so they can give their executives bonuses. > Are you also going to force those workers to buy American? Most of the workers you refer to have no problem taking that money to Walmart and buying lots of cheap crap from China. > > Great, you’re plan borrows money from China, makes the Walton family richer, hurts unions, and promotes exploration of the American poor. > > Maybe stop helping. I can not believe you wrote something that dumb. We actually do make things in America. We build bridges and mix concrete without China’s help. Construction does not involve exotic technologies that we can not supply here. If there is an occasional item we can’t supply. I am sure the construction company can obtain a variance. But is left on their own. a company would but every item from China or Korea to make more money. that would defeat half the purpose, to help the American economy. They would hire Mexican workers to lower payroll again diminishing the effect of the program. Getting workers on the payroll again has a multiplier effect. It increases demand for restaurants, shows and bars. It allows more people to buy items that allows a company to justify more workers. That in turn creates a bigger tax base ,making us more able to work on deficits. Demand is the key element in fixing the economy. Buying abroad has a far less effect than purchasing locally. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/146 "2011-09-24T21:07:36Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What if the US made product is overpriced shit? What if the foreign product is underpriced shit, and toxic to boot? Sure… Chinese drywall looked like a bargain… but now when I do drywall the customer wants assurance it was made in the US, or at least NOT in China, no matter how much cheaper the Chinese stuff is due to all the problems that arose from it. > [@](#): > > A government program to build windmills sounds great on paper, but where do you buy the windmills from? The best are Vestas, the only US ones I know of are from GE. A quick google brought me these names: Bergey Windpower Clipper Windpower DeWind (USA/German venture) Nordic Windpower Northern Power Systems PacWind Southwest Windpower Admittedly I haven’t researched any of those, but really, if a 30 second google can find US alternatives to GE it sort of undermines that particular argument. > [@](#): > > Are you also going to force those workers to buy American? Most of the workers you refer to have no problem taking that money to Walmart and buying lots of cheap crap from China. More likely, the only thing those American workers can \*afford \*is Wal-Mart and cheap crap from China > [@](#): > > Great, you’re plan borrows money from China, makes the Walton family richer, hurts unions, and promotes exploration of the American poor. Well, there’s exploitation, and there there is _no income at all_ which sucks even worse. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/147 "2011-09-25T04:15:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I can not believe you wrote something that dumb. I can’t believe you wrote something that insulting. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/148 "2011-09-25T04:31:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What if the foreign product is underpriced shit, and toxic to boot? So can we conclude that perhaps more should go into the decision process than simply “made in America”? Or simply “lowest price available.” You know that’s not the first time you’ve made that assumption about something I wrote. There is a middle in between two extremes. Or do you still think sex offenders should be allowed to adopt? You did say you want to make it easier to adopt. > [@Broomstick](#): > > A quick google brought me these names: > … > Admittedly I haven’t researched any of those, but really, if a 30 second google can find US alternatives to GE it sort of undermines that particular argument. And are any of them better than all of the foreign competitors, which is the point of that particular argument you’re trying to undermine. > [@Broomstick](#): > > More likely, the only thing those American workers can \*afford \*is Wal-Mart and cheap crap from China Tomato, tomato. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, there’s exploitation, and there there is _no income at all_ which sucks even worse. So you’re okay with exploitation? Would you like the minimum wage lowered? Working conditions made worse? Safety requirements removed? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/149 "2011-09-25T06:26:11Z")
gonzomax: > [@](#): > > Trickle down is cutting taxes for the wealthy with a dream that they will for some unknown reason, start hiring people. That’s not right. Trickle down - whether it works or not - is cutting taxes on the wealthy in the hopes that they will use the extra cash for consumer products, the increased demand for which will cause jobs to be created, or for investment capital, which will allow the companies being invested in to hire workers. There’s no need for “for some unknown reason” snark here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/150 "2011-09-25T07:52:30Z")
---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/151 "2011-09-25T12:28:08Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s not right. Trickle down - whether it works or not - is cutting taxes on the wealthy in the hopes that they will use the extra cash for consumer products,.. And therein lies the fallacy of that economic theory. The wealthy already have enough money to buy whatever consumer goods they want; that’s why they are called “the wealthy”. Any additional income they receive through tax cuts just goes into their portfolio as investments, which the economy don’t need right now. There is no shortage of capital holding down job creation; there is a shortage of demand, because those who are the real consumers that drive demand (the “not-wealthy”) are tapped out. Any government stimulus should be targeted directly at them through direct job creation. The wealthy will reap benefits anyway, through “trickle up” economics, as their businesses and investments grow when consumers begin spending again, more than offsetting any tax increases through true economic growth. Why is this so hard for conservatives to understand? Personally, I think they understand it perfectly well, but they are just too lazy to earn money the old fashioned way, by pursuing consumers. They would rather grow their portfolios through tax cuts alone, paying less and less for the abundant government services that enabled their wealth accumulation in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/152 "2011-09-25T12:30:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Or do you still think sex offenders should be allowed to adopt? You did say you want to make it easier to adopt. You know damn well that NOT what I said. I ask you to retract that accusation as it is absolutely false. YOU are the only one to suggest that. No one else here has. > [@](#): > > And are any of them better than all of the foreign competitors, which is the point of that particular argument you’re trying to undermine. You stated that the only windmill company in the US was GE. Clearly, that was in error. As stated, I have no researched them. Since you’re interested in the topic, and you now have a list of names, feel free to look into them. > [@](#): > > So you’re okay with exploitation? Would you like the minimum wage lowered? Working conditions made worse? Safety requirements removed? No, don’t be ridiculous! I merely stated that exploitation might be preferable to either starving or freezing to death. That doesn’t make it right or healthy. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/153 "2011-09-25T15:50:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You know damn well that NOT what I said. I ask you to retract that accusation as it is absolutely false. No more false than the things you accused me of. You’re welcome to retract the misleading statements you made about me, until then what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. > [@Broomstick](#): > > You stated that the only windmill company in the US was GE. Clearly, that was in error. > > As stated, I have no researched them. Since you’re interested in the topic, and you now have a list of names, feel free to look into them. You really should have done the extra 15sec to make sure you know what you’re talking about. Bergey produces \*\*small \*\*wind turbines for personal use. Clipper is owned by United Technologies, which is massive. Still relatively new to turbines. Nordic is also producing relatively \*\*small \*\*turbines, which is based on Swedish developments, been around since 2007. Northern Power also produces \*\*small \*\*turbines, now a multinational. PacWind makes the vertical style turbines, not sure they’re seeing a lot of commercial use yet. Southwest Windpower also produces very \*\*small \*\*turbines. Which brings us back to GE and maybe Clipper has US based companies providing large scale wind turbines. Point here being that in a globalized economy, it’s possible that the best company for the job isn’t going to be American. > [@Broomstick](#): > > No, don’t be ridiculous! I merely stated that exploitation might be preferable to either starving or freezing to death. That doesn’t make it right or healthy. So what does that actually mean? That exploitation might be preferable? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/154 "2011-09-25T16:24:31Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Bergey produces \*\*small \*\*wind turbines for personal use… OH, now you qualify it with “small” vs. “big” instead of just flat out saying “Only GE makes windmills in the US”. Nice sliding goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/155 "2011-09-25T18:13:33Z")
Fear itself: > [@](#): > > And therein lies the fallacy of that economic theory. The wealthy already have enough money to buy whatever consumer goods they want; that’s why they are called “the wealthy”. Any additional income they receive through tax cuts just goes into their portfolio as investments, which the economy don’t need right now. I’m not saying that trickle-down doesn’t have its flaws. But there’s real arguments, like yours, and there’s ignorant snark, like saying “for some unknown reason they’ll create jobs,” like Underpants Gnomes, which is what I was replying to. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/156 "2011-09-25T18:36:45Z")
I always thought that “trickle down” did not refer to the wealthy buying stuff with their tax breaks, but rather referred to them using the extra cash to invest in the economy (by investing in companies, stocks, capital equipment etc.) If the trickle down theory just referred to the wealthy buying consumer stuff… it does not make any difference who gets the extra cash - the poor would also buy consumer stuff. So it would make no difference who got the tax break. As has been pointed out, where trickle down does not seem to work is that the wealthy do not necessarily invest in the economy with their extra cash from the tax breaks. Simply buying stocks and bonds for their portfolio does not translate into an improved economy. At the moment, most would not invest the extra cash in the market anyway - they’d put it in treasuries or other safe haven investments. Or send it to Switzerland. Also, companies are currently sitting on a huge pile of cash and are doing nothing with it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/157 "2011-09-25T18:53:45Z")
Kinda the Prisoner’s Dilemma, isn’t it? If all these guys hoarding their cash were to take a leap of faith and start ordering manufactured goods, hiring workers, that sort of thing, then it increases the chances that the economy recovers and they all benefit. But if they all hang on grimly waiting for the other lemming to jump first, then they all lose. And, the best possible solution for the single company is to hang on to it and for _everybody else_ to let 'er rip. If things go well, they are in an excellent position to leverage the benefits, if it goes straight to hell, they still got a buttload of cash when liquidity will be king. I know! We’ll say do it for your country! “We’re not asking you to take a bullet for Obama, just risk all your money!” Yeah! That’ll work. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/158 "2011-09-25T19:33:09Z")
Euphonious Polemic: > [@](#): > > If the trickle down theory just referred to the wealthy buying consumer stuff… it does not make any difference who gets the extra cash - the poor would also buy consumer stuff. So it would make no difference who got the tax break. Yes, except that it’s the rich who are paying the higher percentage of their income in taxes, so if the goal is to get money from a tax break is likely to get back into the economy, it’s that tax money that stands most to be liberated, not the poor’s paltry sums. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/159 "2011-09-25T19:47:55Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Euphonious Polemic: > > Yes, except that it’s the rich who are paying the higher percentage of their income in taxes, so if the goal is to get money from a tax break is likely to get back into the economy, it’s that tax money that stands most to be liberated, not the poor’s paltry sums. But tax breaks for the rich don’t put money back into the economy. Any consumer goods they buy will be relatively trivial. There is nothing to invest in these days. All the money will do is to bid up the prices of stocks and such, which does not help. Though the poor will get less per capita, they will spend all of it and there are lots more of them. In any case gonzo’s so-called snark isn’t far off. No one supporting trickle down seems to be able to explain why it would create more jobs except through magic. When you start talking demand, they change the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081/160 "2011-09-25T19:52:09Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Euphonious Polemic: > > Yes, except that it’s the rich who are paying the higher percentage of their income in taxes, so if the goal is to get money from a tax break is likely to get back into the economy, it’s that tax money that stands most to be liberated, not the poor’s paltry sums. If you give a tax break that totals (say) 1 billion dollars to 1 million middle-of-the-road taxpayers, each will get $1000. Most folks will spend this on consumer items, or will pay off debts. If you give a tax break that totals 1 billion dollars to 1000 wealthy individuals who have most everything they could ever need, what do you think they will do with the extra $1 million dollars? Probably stick it in an interest bearing account, or send to Switzerland to keep the rest of their money company. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-republicans-can-stfu-about-job-creators/597081.md?page=9)