# The response of opposition party if a presidential election is absolutely jobbed **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 22, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353 "2019-05-22T15:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/21 "2019-05-23T14:02:21Z")
I’d propose a counter scenario. What if the military code of conduct, the belief in the constitution, and the love of America was so firmly impressed on both the junior and senior officers in the Pentagon that they decided that the destruction of America needed to be stopped at all costs? I’m sure that if several infantry, mechanized, and/or air cav divisions suddenly decided on an impromptu tour of the White House, the gate wouldn’t exactly be able to stop them. Personally, I’d be heart broken… and while shaking my head I’d probably ask most poignantly, “…would you like more wine, Dear…?” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/22 "2019-05-23T14:04:02Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > As I have pointed out in another thread, there is nothing in the constitution that would prevent the Republican legislatures of Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, … from deciding to abort the results of the vote and put in their own slate of electors. So it could happen. But it won’t. I very much doubt it would be legal according to the state constitutions for any state to change its mind in the middle of an election as to how it would select its electors. But even if so, that wouldn’t meet the thread’s hypothetical; because that presumes Biden wins the electoral college. In your hypothetical, he’d be prevented from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/23 "2019-05-23T14:10:10Z")
Another election to look at for parallels was 1876, when the Democrats essentially gave the election to the Republicans in exchange for the end of Reconstruction. Tilden won the popular vote by a large margin, but 3 states had disputed results. In the end a political compromise was arranged under controversial conditions, a true backroom deal. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/24 "2019-05-23T14:12:39Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Question, please. What is JSM? Possibly [this](https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2019/). I believe **RTFirefly** is a professional mathematician/statistician/something like that. I am assuming it’s not this [one](https://www.jsm.org/). 🙂 Regards, Shodan, BS, PTA, BYOB, TLDR, LS/MFT ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/25 "2019-05-23T14:28:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Possibly [this](https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2019/). > > I believe **RTFirefly** is a professional mathematician/statistician/something like that. > > I am assuming it’s not this [one](https://www.jsm.org/). 🙂 > > Regards, > Shodan, BS, PTA, BYOB, TLDR, LS/MFT If that’s it, you are 100% correct. The JSM is not the deciding legal authority. Or any legal authority, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/26 "2019-05-23T16:48:45Z")
😕 Some of the answers seem to pursue the question of what is proper and/or legal. _ **Why?** _ The present-day Republican Party has turned from extreme mischief and malice to blatant criminality. Trump and his enablers are already illegally refusing Orders of Subpoena. They held up judicial appointments under Obama and hurried to help Trump pack the courts with judges expected to go easy on their crimes. _Most of the American public is ignorant or confused about all this._ Mueller — the highly respected former FBI Director — finds that Trump obstructed justice? The DoJ launches an investigation into … Mueller, Comey and Hillary; and the Senate goes along. The country is being run for the benefit of big corporations, the super-rich, and specific criminal friends of well-connected Gopsters. This isn’t just a few multi-billion-dollar deals we’re talking about: the stakes riding on the occupation of the W.H. are enormous. The 2017 tax cut represented a transfer to the super-rich in the amount of, believe it or not, several Trillions of Dollars. With four more years they expect to get much more. The stakes are enormous. If they think they have a decent shot at stealing the election, they will. OP understands all this. With the GOP sinking to new depths of depravity every day, a cheated election is not an unlikely result. He asks _What will the Dems do about it?_ I think there will be huge anger from many Dems, but the Fox Potatoes will all laugh in unison. What will citizens think? The average American never was very smart, and is getting stupider every day. Soldiers will do as they’re told. With 65% of white males supporting Trump, I wouldn’t count on help there. If RBG is still alive, Chief Roberts might vote for democracy. But with \*trillions \*of dollars at stake there’s probably already a bounty on RBG’s head. I expect there to be five despicable scum on Scotus by December 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/27 "2019-05-23T19:13:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Some of the answers seem to pursue the question of what is proper and/or legal. _ **Why?** _ Because the scenario in the OP posited that the Supreme Court upheld whatever it was. I.e. it was legal according to the highest court in the land. > [@](#): > > I expect there to be five despicable scum on Scotus by December 2020. Then I guess you’re screwed. If the Supreme Court gets to decide, even if they are making it up as they go along, and it doesn’t matter what the Constitution says but only what the Supremes think it should say, then them’s the rules. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Of course none of this will happen - it’s all hysterics. Trump has probably better than a 50-50 chance of re-election, although it’s early days. But [ul][li]Biden wins in a popular landslide, [_]Bid wins the electoral college in a landslide, [_]_mumble mumble_, [_]The Supreme Court rules that mumble mumble was legal,[/ul]then the logical next step is [ul][_]wait for the Democratic heads to finish exploding[/ul]and then impeach. [/li] If enough Democratic heads are left in the House. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/28 "2019-05-23T21:32:51Z")
Well, if y’all flee north, don’t expect to crash at my place. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/29 "2019-05-23T23:48:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Some of the answers seem to pursue the question of what is proper and/or legal. _ **Why?** _ > . Because, bad as things are, they’re not that bad. It’d take more than four years to ease the USA into a place where it’s possible to be as blatantly illegal as you’re positing. Yes, there’s an awful lot of crap going on; but while it’s in new versions, it’s not new crap. It’s the same old crap coming around and around again. It may kill the country eventually, but it hasn’t done it yet. So let’s get out and vote, instead of deciding that it’s useless. (And, in the meantime, demand paper ballot backups if your area hasn’t got them already.) Plus which, if it does get that bad, Biden or whoever still won’t win the popular vote and the electoral college both in a landslide, with everyone or even any significant number of people allowed to know that he did so, but then be stopped at that point. He just wouldn’t be allowed to win; or wouldn’t be allowed to run in the first place. There are genuine things to worry about; but the particular scenario you’re positing isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/30 "2019-05-24T00:56:25Z")
Back in the early 1960s there was a ton of political thrillers about this or that person double-crossing some other person and someone uncovering a vast plot to take over the government of the United States of America. You may have heard of the _Manchurian Candidate_, but that was just the tip of the iceberg. I suggest everyone with one of these wild conspiracy theories [start here](https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Days-May-Fletcher-Knebel/dp/0060124350/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=seven+days+in+may&qid=1558659003&s=books&sr=1-1) and then go through every “Customers who viewed this item also viewed. . .” until they find their question fully discussed. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/31 "2019-05-24T03:08:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AFAICT the exceptions to the _ex post facto_ clause were in criminal cases. The case I am thinking of was for retroactive requirements for sex offenders. > > I am not aware of any exception that was made for federal elections. Maybe you know of some - I haven’t researched it much. Do you know of any case where the courts have ruled it OK to change the rules of an election after the election was held? That isn’t what happened in Florida in 2000 AFAIK. There, I believe the Supreme Court ruled that they could _not_ change the rules for counting ballots/timelines/certification after the fact. > > Regards, > Shodan Nitpick. There is a federal law (cite available on request) that is called the Safe Harbor Provision for electoral votes. If a state assigns its electors based upon its state law in effect at the time of election day and certifies its results, then that result is binding upon Congress and any debate about the validity of those EVs are out of order. In Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court held (in part) that the Florida recount procedure was a change in law by the state judiciary taking it outside the Safe Harbor provision, and struck it down as it was contrary to the intent of the people who wished to take advantage of the Safe Harbor Provision. Still, there is nothing that would prevent any state legislature from simply declaring, after the state popular vote didn’t go the way it wanted, that it would appoint the electors for its preferred candidate. Then that state would be outside the Safe Harbor provision and a challenge to those votes would be in order during the Senate certification of votes. But the problem with the OP is the undefined “can’t cook up a scenario.” If it gets 5 votes from the Supreme Court, it cannot be that frivolous of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/32 "2019-05-24T07:24:07Z")
The scenario was cooked up in several Election threads after the 2016 Election: _ **Faithless Electors** _. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/33 "2019-05-24T15:36:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > AFAICT the exceptions to the _ex post facto_ clause were in criminal cases. The case I am thinking of was for retroactive requirements for sex offenders. > > I am not aware of any exception that was made for federal elections. Maybe you know of some - I haven’t researched it much. Do you know of any case where the courts have ruled it OK to change the rules of an election after the election was held? That isn’t what happened in Florida in 2000 AFAIK. There, I believe the Supreme Court ruled that they could _not_ change the rules for counting ballots/timelines/certification after the fact. > > Regards, > Shodan Again, the ex post facto clause only applies to criminal cases. That is why the only modern litigation over exceptions to that clause involve whether something is a criminal prohibition or not (e.g., sex offender registry). There is no plausible argument that the relevant election laws are criminal laws. There may well be other constitutional problems with changing the outcome after the election, such as an equal protection problem (which was the basis for the ruling in Bush v. Gore). But it is not an ex post facto problem. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/34 "2019-05-24T16:08:00Z")
Is there a ruling that the _ex post facto_ clause only applies to criminal cases, or a ruling on a non-criminal case that was allowed to stand even though it was \* ex post facto\*? Or has the question never been asked? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/35 "2019-05-24T19:29:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Soldiers will do as they’re told. (_heavily snipped_) This is the part I wonder about – told by whom? Seeing as how the POTUS is the commander in chief, what’s to stop him from commanding the military to suppress any effort to remove him from power, regardless of the election results? And what could an aggrieved citizenry do about it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/36 "2019-05-24T20:23:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > JSM isn’t the deciding legal authority in cases like that. The US Supreme Court is, and they say differently. They got to rule on whether the Florida recount got to continue or not. To the best of my knowledge, they didn’t issue an opinion on whether they helped steal an election. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Question, please. What is JSM? The annual Joint Statistical Meetings. I figured that if Velocity had to ask, there was a great deal of evidence he hadn’t been exposed to concerning his assertion, which was the reason for my omission. > [@Shodan](#): > > Possibly [this](https://ww2.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2019/). You win the gold star. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I believe **RTFirefly** is a professional mathematician/statistician/something like that. Been both at various times. Been a professional statistician for slightly longer than I’ve been on this board. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/37 "2019-05-24T20:33:17Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cite? Just for the final sentence. We already see the criminal party defying subpoenas, planning to rig the census, torturing children and probably practicing treason. The Mueller report shows that Trump committed obstruction so DoJ will now … investigate Mueller. It certainly isn’t shame that would stop these criminals from more crimes. And their crimes would be fancied up; they’d tell everyone on Fox&Friends that they were the aggrieved party, that it was the Ds who’d cheated in Pennsylvania, and they were just undoing that cheating. By the time their propaganda machine got through there’d be calls to cancel the 2024 election for fear the Ds would keep cheating. This. There is absolutely no question in my mind that \* they have already stolen an election. \* Without Comey and the Russians, Trump would not have won, and the GOP specifically aided both of these illegal interventions. (And continues to obstruct any attempt to keep them from happening again.) Donald Trump is not currently the legitimate President. What have the Dems done? Absolutely freaking nothing. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/38 "2019-05-25T02:06:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is there a ruling that the _ex post facto_ clause only applies to criminal cases, or a ruling on a non-criminal case that was allowed to stand even though it was \* ex post facto\*? Or has the question never been asked? > > Regards, > Shodan > **[Calder v. Bull](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calder_v._Bull)** > > Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 386 (1798), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court decided four important points of constitutional law. > First, the ex post facto clause of the United States Constitution applies to criminal laws that have at least one of four effects: > 1st. Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action. 2nd. Every law that aggravates a crime, makes it greater than it was,... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/39 "2019-05-28T12:58:33Z")
That’s not quite on point. Is there a case where the Supreme Court ruled that the clause applied _ **only** _ to criminal cases, and not to elections? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353/40 "2019-05-28T16:33:14Z")
If I may junior-mod a bit, the thread was not at all about the likelihood of such a stolen election happening - it’s highly unlikely that an election could be taken away from a candidate who’s got 400 EVs and a double-digit lead in the popular vote. My question was - \*\*\*if \*\*\*it happened, what would or could the party that got jobbed, do about it? (We’ve debated alien invasions from space and zombie apocalypses on this message board before, so please don’t say “I won’t debate hypotheticals that are too far-fetched”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-response-of-opposition-party-if-a-presidential-election-is-absolutely-jobbed/834353.md?page=3)