# The restaurant tab conundrum. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 8, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132 "2020-01-08T17:51:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Personal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Personal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Personal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/81 "2020-01-10T00:47:49Z")
> [@Calavera](#): > > It’s pretty common and I’ve done it myself several times. However I still wouldn’t consider my bill paid if a 3rd party intercepted it before an authorised restaurant agent could see it. That would be on me. Same here. This is the correct answer. I, the diner, am taking the chance that no one will intercept the cash. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/82 "2020-01-10T02:04:05Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Bolding mine. > > What? You’ve never seen a sign in a restaurant that says something along the lines of “Not responsible for lost articles”? That doesn’t really come into play here, but just because someone puts up a sign, doesn’t make it true. If you put up a sign like that in a locker room and my stuff gets stolen, you’re still on the hook if I can prove that, for example, the lock wasn’t working or non-members could walk in and out even though they weren’t supposed to be. Similarly, I can write “Not responsible for broken windshields” on the back of my dump truck, but it’s still my fault if something hits your windshield and breaks it. These signs are less about the law and more about convincing people that whatever happened is their fault so they don’t bother reporting it to the police or their insurance. > [@Calavera](#): > > ``` > I think quite a few people are working from the OP where we have perfect knowledge that Bob paid, but in the scenario we don't have that knowledge. If they were actually in a restaurant and they witnessed a scene between a guy and a waitress where the guy was insisting he left a 20, the waitress there was nothing there and nobody in the place had noticed anything untoward, I expect fewer would support Bob, mostly assuming he was a chancer who got caught. > > ``` > > Of course the restaurant is on the hook if we have any evidence at all Bob paid That’s interesting. This whole discussion would be very different had the OP been written from the POV of a random witness in the restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/83 "2020-01-10T02:45:41Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > These signs are less about the law and more about convincing people that whatever happened is their fault so they don’t bother reporting it to the police or their insurance. That’s may be true, but in which jurisdictions are establishments responsible for their customers’ personal items? If someone swipes an umbrella out of another customer’s cart, is your store responsible? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/84 "2020-01-10T11:59:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You’ve never seen a sign in a restaurant that says something along the lines of “Not responsible for lost articles”? Someone posted a hand lettered sign along the road I travel daily that reads > [@](#): > > **HEROINE IS NOT THE ANSWER** . Regardless, Sigourney Weaver is still ok in my book. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/85 "2020-01-10T12:16:05Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That doesn’t really come into play here, but just because someone puts up a sign, doesn’t make it true. If you put up a sign like that in a locker room and my stuff gets stolen, you’re still on the hook if I can prove that, for example, the lock wasn’t working or non-members could walk in and out even though they weren’t supposed to be. > Similarly, I can write “Not responsible for broken windshields” on the back of my dump truck, but it’s still my fault if something hits your windshield and breaks it. A sign doesn’t automatically make it true, but sometimes the sign is notifying you of the actual legal liability (i.e., the sign doesn’t make it false, either). The locker room and dump truck are also not automatically liable in the situations you describe (IANAL). In liability cases, there is a standard of care that comes into play, whether ordinary care is required or something more. A court may decide that failure to repair a broken lock in a timely fashion may not be sufficiently negligent for the facility to be held responsible if someone steals from your locker. You might have to prove, for example, that they knew the lock was broken, they knew it for weeks, and there was no way for you to know it was broken when you chose that locker. Even then, the court may apply a low standard of care that still lets them off the hook. If a dump truck fails to properly secure its load and something flies out and hits your windshield, then in some states the truck will be held liable. In Virginia dump trucks are required to cover their loads. However, once a truck kicked up a stone from the road and cracked my windshield, and in that situation the truck had no liability (according to my insurance company). ---
**Author:** ![albino\_manatee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/albino_manatee/32/2_2.png) [@albino\_manatee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/albino_manatee)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/86 "2020-01-10T13:15:30Z")
maybe the solo customer thought he paid … but, in actuality, he never did … there are conditions that warrant this behavior may happen. also … if the waitress is dishonest … she may have pocketed the cash … claiming the customer never paid the bill. if waitress does not come back in reasonable amount of time to fetch the money … the customer should pay the cashier … insisting on a receipt. usually, when i get my last service from the waitstaff _(dessert, coffee, etc.)_ … i ask for the bill immediately. that way, by the time i finish … everything should have been sorted out. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/87 "2020-01-10T13:19:38Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I can tell I’m on a left-leaning message board when, in a scenario involving stealing, “the thief” isn’t one of the poll options for assigning fault. Shouldn’t the correct answer be “all of the above” then? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/88 "2020-01-10T16:04:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Yeah, I wonder how many people who voted “Bob” here stick around to personally hand (cash) tips to the waitstaff to prevent theft. I think leaving a tip on the table and walking out the door is even more common than leaving the full amount on the table and walking out. Yep. The restaurant put Bob’s food on the table. The restaurant put Bob’s bill on the table. Bob put his payment on the table. How is Bob responsible for someone stealing money off the table, whether it be tips or the bill payment? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/89 "2020-01-10T16:59:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Yeah, I wonder how many people who voted “Bob” here stick around to personally hand (cash) tips to the waitstaff to prevent theft. I think leaving a tip on the table and walking out the door is even more common than leaving the full amount on the table and walking out. You aren’t legally obligated to tip, so no one can come after you for failing to deliver on your end of a contract. If someone steals a tip, it’s just gone. > [@control-z](#): > > Yep. The restaurant put Bob’s food on the table. The restaurant put Bob’s bill on the table. The restaurant didn’t put food on the table. They put it on the table where he was sitting and he consumed it. The whole process went through. If they put it on the table when Bob was in the restaurant and someone stole it off the table, Bob could say that he never got his food, so he doesn’t owe anything for it. > [@](#): > > How is Bob responsible for someone stealing money off the table, whether it be tips or the bill payment? Bob isn’t responsible for the stolen money. He’s responsible for paying the bill, and he hasn’t done that. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/90 "2020-01-10T17:36:45Z")
What restaurants have signs in them? Besides “Gentlemen” and “Ladies” (or their synonyms). ---
**Author:** ![TwoCarrotSnowman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twocarrotsnowman/32/15879_2.png) [@TwoCarrotSnowman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoCarrotSnowman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/91 "2020-01-10T17:56:58Z")
As an aside, the UK restaurant chain Frankie and Bennies have introduced online payment - they’re a full at-table waiter-service place, but when you’re finished you can whip out your phone, go to their website, find your restaurant, enter your table number and pay (there’s an option to tip as well). We’ve done that a few times now - at first, just getting up and walking out after a meal without physically paying the waitstaff felt weird. I was sure that we were going to be stopped on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/92 "2020-01-10T18:18:23Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > What restaurants have signs in them? Besides “Gentlemen” and “Ladies” (or their synonyms). There’s a restaurant supply store that sells them, so it must be a lot of them. > **[Thunder Group Not Responsible for Lost or Stolen Articles Sign - Black and...](https://www.webstaurantstore.com/not-responsible-for-lost-or-stolen-articles-sign-black-and-white-9-x-3/2081544.html)** > > Ensure that your customers and employees know that you are not responsible for missing or stolen items with this Thunder Group 9" x 3" not responsible for lost or stolen articles sign! Made of durable plastic, this sleek sign has great color... ---
**Author:** ![apLundell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aplundell/32/14656_2.png) [@apLundell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apLundell)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/93 "2020-01-10T20:03:33Z")
Bob paid his bill in the conventional way. For the restaurant to fail to collect the money **AND** publicly chase down and shame a paying customer because of their own screw-up would be pretty shocking poor behavior. If I were Bob, and I had enough cash, I might pay a second time just out of pity for the wait-staff (and because public shaming works.), but I sure as heck would never return to that restaurant. In my whole life I’ve never left a Yelp review, but this would be such a weird anecdote that I’d feel that I needed to put it down in writing SOMEWHERE, and I can’t think where else it would be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![apLundell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aplundell/32/14656_2.png) [@apLundell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apLundell)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/94 "2020-01-10T20:12:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Why do you feel that is a reflection of “left-leaning” politics? Oh, Fair is fair. When I see someone “solve” a problem by assigning blame and assuming that nothing else remains to be done, I assume they’re right-leaning. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/95 "2020-01-10T21:08:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The restaurant didn’t put food on the table. They put it on the table where he was sitting and he consumed it. The whole process went through. If they put it on the table when Bob was in the restaurant and someone stole it off the table, Bob could say that he never got his food, so he doesn’t owe anything for it. If Bob doesn’t owe for food that was stolen off the table (and I agree with that) then why would he owe more money to replace the payment left on that same table? Neither of these things happen often, and if the bill money did get stolen off the table the restaurant would likely have video of the thief taking the money anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/96 "2020-01-10T23:03:56Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > If Bob doesn’t owe for food that was stolen off the table (and I agree with that) then why would he owe more money to replace the payment left on that same table? The fact that it was stolen has nothing to do with Bob’s obligation. If he received the food and he consumed it, then he owes for it. The restaurant has fulfilled its obligation not by putting the food on the table but by giving it to Bob. If Bob was not at the table when the food was delivered and the food is gone before he comes back, the restaurant has failed its obligation, because Bob didn’t get the food. Whether or not it was on the table is irrelevant. If he never received it, then he doesn’t owe for it. Similarly, if the server receives and collects the payment from Bob, then Bob has fulfilled his obligation. If Bob leaves the money on the table and it’s gone before the server gets it, then Bob has not fulfilled his obligation, because his obligation is to pay the server, not to put the money on the table. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/97 "2020-01-10T23:11:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Similarly, if the server receives and collects the payment from Bob, then Bob has fulfilled his obligation. If Bob leaves the money on the table and it’s gone before the server gets it, then Bob has not fulfilled his obligation, because his obligation is to pay the server, not to put the money on the table. Actually his obligation is to pay the _restaurant_, not the server. Which muddies the issue somewhat - paying the server is paying the server, but paying the restaurant can be done a variety of ways that vary based on the establishment. Especially when you consider that most of us would consider his action entirely sufficient if a restaurant employee happened to have been looking in his direction while he did it. ---
**Author:** ![moldmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@moldmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moldmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/98 "2020-01-11T00:54:43Z")
Restaurant owner here. It’s on the restaurant for us. It’s not common but we do occasionally get stiffed and I would never make the server cover it. It’s just bad from a morale point of view. Also, I am out for the food and labor cost only not the full menu price. I would rather suck that up and have an employee that is happy and wanting to give good service. From talking to servers, its not uncommon for restaurants to make the server cover it. I have heard lots of horror stories from staff about other places and all sorts of really poor and occasionally illegal practices. I had never even worked in the industry until opening this place and it’s been a real eyeopener in all sorts of ways. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/99 "2020-01-11T02:22:13Z")
> [@apLundell](#): > > For the restaurant to fail to collect the money **AND** publicly chase down and shame a paying customer because of their own screw-up would be pretty shocking poor behavior. How did the _restaurant_ screw up, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132/100 "2020-01-11T03:26:10Z")
When [del]I[/del] ah, my friend, yeah, my friend was 17, he ate at an ice cream restaurant with his sister. The service really sucked and it took absolutely forever for the waitress to bring the check. They decided to walk out by going to the bathroom separately and simply leaving. No one chased them down, but they had decided they would both claim that they thought the other would pay. For this, I’d say the restaurant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-restaurant-tab-conundrum/846132.md?page=6)