# The retirbutive justification for punishment is invalid if there is no free will **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891 "2012-07-20T21:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/1 "2012-07-20T21:43:41Z")
Can you justify the punitive element of judicial punishment if there is no free will? It seems to me that if, in the purest sense, no one “can help” committing crimes then it is not fair to punish for retribution. Absent any non-religious evidence for free will that I am aware of, and with a certain level of both scientific and philosophical evidence for the lack of it, I propose that all moral, ethical, and rational theory says we ought to entirely remove retribution as a valid justification for punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/2 "2012-07-20T21:50:25Z")
What evidence are you citing that individual human actions are not products of free will? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/3 "2012-07-20T21:52:24Z")
You may be right, but it doesn’t help. We have no choice but to punish them anyway. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/4 "2012-07-20T21:57:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You may be right, but it doesn’t help. > > We have no choice but to punish them anyway. > > Regards, > Shodan Checkmate. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/5 "2012-07-20T22:00:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You may be right, but it doesn’t help. > > We have no choice but to punish them anyway. > > Regards, > Shodan I understand your point, but it is invalid. It certainly _feels_ to me like I have some free will, and I would imagine the same for you. So we can discuss this, whether it really is _us_ or purely physical processes making the decisions doesn’t really matter. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/6 "2012-07-20T22:02:12Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > What evidence are you citing that individual human actions are not products of free will? Just assume it’s the case for the thread. If you want to discuss whether I’m correct then please start another thread and I will explain. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/7 "2012-07-20T22:06:07Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > I understand your point, but it is invalid. It certainly _feels_ to me like I have some free will, and I would imagine the same for you. So we can discuss this, whether it really is _us_ or purely physical processes making the decisions doesn’t really matter. Well, then, we’re not punishing the prisoner, we’re punishing his purely physical process. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/8 "2012-07-20T22:10:26Z")
One justification for punishment is modifying people’s behavior by negative stimuli; there’s no need to postulate “free will” for that. In fact, “free will” undercuts it, since it denies that cause and effect apply to it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/9 "2012-07-20T22:19:15Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Can you justify the punitive element of judicial punishment if there is no free will? It seems to me that if, in the purest sense, no one “can help” committing crimes then it is not fair to punish for retribution. If the criminal is merely an organic machine with no capacity for self-determination, how is he any different to a rabid dog or a defective toaster? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/10 "2012-07-20T22:19:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, then, we’re not punishing the prisoner, we’re punishing his purely physical process. For which the defendant is free of blame, presumably. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/11 "2012-07-20T22:21:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One justification for punishment is modifying people’s behavior by negative stimuli; there’s no need to postulate “free will” for that. In fact, “free will” undercuts it, since it denies that cause and effect apply to it. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, then, we’re not punishing the prisoner, we’re punishing his purely physical process. I clearly haven’t made the debate clear enough. I am no advocating no punishment. We can still, for example, have it to provide a negative stimuli. That is the “deterrent” aspect of punishment. The thread is just about whether it makes any sense at all for there to be justice for “revenge” (and only for revenge). I would say it’s quite obvious that revenge against physical processes is silly. But if it’s against a consciousness that does exist yet has no actual control, then it’s **evil**. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/12 "2012-07-20T22:22:22Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If the criminal is merely an organic machine with no capacity for self-determination, how is he any different to a rabid dog or a defective toaster? You can have consciousness, feeling, and suffering without free will. Clearly if a human is purely a machine then it’s stupid to care about ethics or morality at all though, in which case any justice system is as right as any other. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/13 "2012-07-20T22:26:38Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Just assume it’s the case for the thread. If you want to discuss whether I’m correct then please start another thread and I will explain. Um, okay. It’s sort of like positing “since humans can fly by flapping our arms are we giving birds an inferiority complex?” You’re asking for a rational debate based on an irrational assumption. It’s also a begging the question logical fallacy. But, okay. Shodan’s response is more than just hilarious, it’s spot on. Whatever drives one to offend beyond his control drives his counterpart to punish. In your hypothetical ecosystem they are each equally to blame and equally blameless. Since free will levels the playing field with regard to our motivations, a lack of free will does the same. In the end, if there is no free will it doesn’t matter if we punish or if we don’t. They are morally and amorally equal. So, should they be punished? Yes. Should they be pardoned? Yes. It’s kind of a Schroedinger’s Cat contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/14 "2012-07-20T22:30:49Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > Um, okay. It’s sort of like positing “since humans can fly by flapping our arms are we giving birds an inferiority complex?” You’re asking for a rational debate based on an irrational assumption. It’s also a begging the question logical fallacy. But, okay. > > Shodan’s response is more than just hilarious, it’s spot on. Whatever drives one to offend beyond his control drives his counterpart to punish. In your hypothetical ecosystem they are each equally to blame and equally blameless. Since free will levels the playing field with regard to our motivations, a lack of free will does the same. In the end, if there is no free will it doesn’t matter if we punish or if we don’t. They are morally and amorally equal. So, should they be punished? Yes. Should they be pardoned? Yes. It’s kind of a Schroedinger’s Cat contradiction. It is not an irrational assumption to assume that humans have no free will. It is a perfectly respectable debate with no settled answer one way or t’other. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/15 "2012-07-20T22:45:23Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Can you justify the punitive element of judicial punishment if there is no free will? It seems to me that if, in the purest sense, no one “can help” committing crimes then it is not fair to punish for retribution. > > Absent any non-religious evidence for free will that I am aware of, and with a certain level of both scientific and philosophical evidence for the lack of it, I propose that all moral, ethical, and rational theory says we ought to entirely remove retribution as a valid justification for punishment. Why don’t you think there is free will? If atheism is true than the universe is literally chaos (unless you accept something like the Marxist dialectic). There is plenty of religious evidence against free will though. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/16 "2012-07-20T22:50:06Z")
I’ve considered before that in some ways it’s unfair to punish bad people for doing bad things because they’re just doing what comes naturally to them. We don’t blame a mentally ill person for something they do because of abnormalities of their mind. Surely a “bad” person is comparable - their mind is just different in such a way that we disagree on what is the right level of selfishness. But in the end there’s no getting round **Shodan’s** point. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/17 "2012-07-20T22:56:08Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > I would say it’s quite obvious that revenge against physical processes is silly. But if it’s against a consciousness that does exist yet has no actual control, then it’s **evil**. But in such a case, the person or people taking revenge _also_ have no actual control, and thus can’t be classified as evil in any meaningful sense of that word. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/18 "2012-07-20T23:03:40Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why don’t you think there is free will? If atheism is true than the universe is literally chaos (unless you accept something like the Marxist dialectic). There is plenty of religious evidence against free will though. There’s plenty of order in the universe with no need to postulate any gods. The real universe is in fact indistinguishable from one without a god in fact, so adding a god changes nothing in terms of “order” and “chaos”. And there’s no “religious evidence” of anything; that’s why they call it faith. And there’s no “free will” as the term is usually used because the concept itself makes no sense. If it isn’t random and isn’t deterministic, then there’s nothing left for it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/19 "2012-07-20T23:10:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And there’s no “free will” as the term is usually used because the concept itself makes no sense. If it isn’t random and isn’t deterministic, then there’s nothing left for it to be. I mean how little of free will does there have to be for there to be no choice for people? For example is the fact that I chose Corn Flakes instead of eggs for breakfast a product of predetermined biological and social conditions? Or does it apply only to large events? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/20 "2012-07-20T23:16:01Z")
As I said, there’s no reason to think that the classic version of free will is even possible. It doesn’t appear to even be _definable_, except by what it isn’t. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891.md?page=2)