# The retirbutive justification for punishment is invalid if there is no free will **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891 "2012-07-20T21:43:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/41 "2012-07-22T11:24:56Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I remain patiently waiting for you to post a moral absolute without (God help you) appealing to Religion or some other higher authority. Killing another sapient being that has done nothing to provoke you for your own entertainment is evil. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/42 "2012-07-22T11:37:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I mean how little of free will does there have to be for there to be no choice for people? For example is the fact that I chose Corn Flakes instead of eggs for breakfast a product of predetermined biological and social conditions? Or does it apply only to large events? Where did that breakfast decision come from? Either the decision had some kind of cause (and your will is beholden to it), or it was random (and your will wasn’t involved). What else is there? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/43 "2012-07-22T12:13:08Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > A society composed of psychopaths might well be crippled, but that does not mean it’s wrong (in an absolute sense) to be a psychopath. I never claimed it was; again, I don’t consider “absolute morality” to be either true or useful. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Without a Higher Authority, there isn’t any absolute right or wrong and therefore there isnt any morality which carries more weight than any other “morality.” This has always been the dilemma for atheists. No, it’s been a dilemma in the minds of the believers who convince themselves it’s a problem. And who convince themselves that their imaginary god is a solution. Again; neither you nor any other believer can demonstrate that their god exists, or that their so-called absolute morality is any more absolute than any other. All that basing your morality on a god does is slap a baseless label of divine will upon it so you can pretend it’s somehow more “absolute” that the rest of ours. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I remain patiently waiting for you to post a moral absolute without (God help you) appealing to Religion or some other higher authority. 😉 Again; absolute morality is your fetish, not mine. And religion isn’t a higher authority. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The concept that humans are a special species set apart somehow from other species and subject to special moral obligations is rooted in religion, which was created precisely because there is no other mechansim by which to create an appeal to Authority when codifying behaviour. No, it’s based in the fact that animals, plants and inanimate objects can’t argue the matter with us. It’s also based on our evolved nature, and thousands of years of accumulated experience. Religion is a latecomer, is no more absolute than the claims of some random lunatic on a streetcorner, and is a terrible moral guide. It is if anything innately hostile to morality, being based on falsehoods and irrationality. One of the first steps towards genuinely moral thought and behavior is to reject or sideline religion. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/44 "2012-07-22T13:57:01Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Killing another sapient being that has done nothing to provoke you for your own entertainment is evil. ‘Evil’ is an ideological concept. Fairness, Justice, Mercy, Good, Evil; These things do not exist in the Universe except in the minds of Men. It is we who create these concepts and decide exactly what they mean Today. Tomorrow they will have a different meaning, just as they did yesterday. Likewise what you and I may consider as such may well be different from others believe them to be. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/45 "2012-07-22T14:49:28Z")
Punishing someone for an act they did not commit willfully is immoral, and not currently done (not intended to be done anyway) in our system of justice. Since humans do have free will by any reasonable definition, it’s only a rare occurence to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/46 "2012-07-23T03:08:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Killing another sapient being that has done nothing to provoke you for your own entertainment is evil. Why? And says who? Many cultures have done this. But even if they haven’t, there isn’t any argument to be made that there is any such thing as “evil.” The concept is a construct of the sapient mind, arbitrarily defined. I understand that it may be against your personal code, and possibly even the code of your society. But there isn’t any absolute standard of “evil.” Period. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891/47 "2012-07-23T05:55:58Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Where did that breakfast decision come from? Either the decision had some kind of cause (and your will is beholden to it), or it was random (and your will wasn’t involved). What else is there? Compatibilism. And, some would argue (not me), libertarian free will. More to the point, do you accept or reject responsible agency? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-retirbutive-justification-for-punishment-is-invalid-if-there-is-no-free-will/628891.md?page=2)