# The return of debtor’s prisons in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 27, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461 "2013-05-27T13:40:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/1 "2013-05-27T13:40:48Z")
Debtor’s prisons were one of the more horrific institutions in the mid to late 17th century. The county poor farm was alive and well even into the 1930’s in some places. It’s disturbing to realize this can return even in a relatively small way. The poorest and most disadvantaged are the ones that get caught up in this catch-22. You need to work to pay the debt but owing money to the court can cost you your drivers license and even public benefits. Some people can’t get the license or certification they need to work until the debt is cleared. It’s an insidious circle that accrues 12% interest in some places. Throwing the person deeper and deeper into debt even when payments are made. [http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/\_news/2013/05/27/18380470-sentenced-to-debt-some-tossed-in-prison-over-unpaid-fines?lite](http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/27/18380470-sentenced-to-debt-some-tossed-in-prison-over-unpaid-fines?lite) > [@](#): > > “The system doesn’t really work when the courts, instead of administering justice, are debt collection agencies,” said Roopal Patel, co-author of a 2010 report on the issue by the Brennan Center for Justice. “If a court is preoccupied with fundraising and turning toward the poorest people going through the system to raise money, it really undermines the function of the courts.” > > While there is no comprehensive data on how many states jail citizens for court-related debt, several organizations, including the Brennan Center, have raised alarms over what they say is the widespread practice of locking up poor offenders in violation of federal law, citing Supreme Court rulings that someone can only be incarcerated for “willfully” refusing to pay. > [@](#): > > Critics argue that that debt and aggressive collection efforts can prevent poor defendants, many of whom lack legal representation, from contributing to society. > > “We’re talking about saddling a population that has nothing with debt, and then telling them they’re supposed to successfully re-enter society and be productive,” said Rebecca Vallas, an attorney with Community Legal Services, which provides legal assistance to poor Philadelphia residents. > > ‘Stunted my growth’ > Tyeisha Gamble, 26, who lives on Philadelphia’s north side with her 2-year-old son and her boyfriend, said she has been trying to extricate herself from the system for seven years. > > In 2006 she was convicted of simple assault, a misdemeanor, after an altercation with a co-worker. Included in her criminal conviction – her first and only – were about $500 in court-ordered fees and fines. > > She said she did her best to pay her debt while attending school, racking up more debt with student loans, but fell behind. In 2011, she earned her BA in fashion marketing from the Philadelphia Institute of Art. But Gamble said her criminal record, which can’t be expunged unless she pays her debt, has made it nearly impossible to land a job in her field. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/2 "2013-05-27T14:53:36Z")
Fundamentally, there are 2 main punishments- incarceration or fines. Clearly jail time is inappropriate in something like a misdemeanor assault charge, but somehow we’re supposed to feel sorry for people who incur fines because they broke the law and can’t pay their fines? Would it have been better for her to have spent 4 days in jail, with the lost work, child care, etc…? I don’t feel the least bit sorry for people who do stupid shit and are unprepared for, or can’t handle the consequences of their actions, poor, rich or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/3 "2013-05-27T15:07:31Z")
Someone has had 7 years (84 months) to pay 500 for a criminal assault and they live their lives and graduate from college but can't set aside 10 a month to pay the fine? Is this example designed to elicit sympathy because it’s failing. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/4 "2013-05-27T16:13:16Z")
\ I just recoil at ever sending anyone to jail over a debt. It’s a violation of Federal law and the sordid history of debters prisons is so appalling. We studied that period in college and Dickens describes it in his books. [CBS published this article in April.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-57577994/as-economy-flails-debtors-prisons-thrive/) I added italics to one sentence about Florida’s debt courts. There’s no right to a public defender. They are targeting the most vulnerable and impoverished people to squeeze money from. How can you ever repay a debt with a 40% surcharge? You’ll be shackled to debt payments for a long, long time. > [@](#): > > Thousands of Americans are sent to jail not for committing a crime, but because they can’t afford to pay for traffic tickets, medical bills and court fees. > > If that sounds like a debtors’ prison, a legal relic which was abolished in this country in the 1830s, that’s because it is. And courts and judges in states across the land are violating the Constitution by incarcerating people for being unable to pay such debts. > [@](#): > > Some states apply “poverty penalties,” such as late fees, payment plan fees and interest, when people are unable to pay all their debts at once. Alabama charges a 30 percent collection fee, for instance, while Florida allows private debt collectors to add a 40 percent surcharge on the original debt. _Some Florida counties also use so-called collection courts, where debtors can be jailed but have no right to a public defender._ In North Carolina, people are charged for using a public defender, so poor defendants who can’t afford such costs may be forced to forgo legal counsel. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/5 "2013-05-27T16:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > In 2006 she was convicted of simple assault, a misdemeanor, after an altercation with a co-worker. Included in her criminal conviction – her first and only – were about $500 in court-ordered fees and fines. > > She said she did her best to pay her debt while attending school, racking up more debt with student loans, but fell behind. In 2011, she earned her BA in fashion marketing from the Philadelphia Institute of Art. But Gamble said her criminal record, which can’t be expunged unless she pays her debt, has made it nearly impossible to land a job in her field. So she attacks a co-worker, doesn’t pay her fines, and it’s the system’s fault that she can’t find a job? This woman doesn’t need debtor’s prison; she needs Stupid Prison. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/6 "2013-05-27T17:23:16Z")
People get locked up for contempt of court. Is that news? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/7 "2013-05-27T19:56:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > \ I just recoil at ever sending anyone to jail over a debt. It’s a violation of Federal law and the sordid history of debters prisons is so appalling. We studied that period in college and Dickens describes it in his books. > > [CBS published this article in April.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-57577994/as-economy-flails-debtors-prisons-thrive/) I added italics to one sentence about Florida’s debt courts. There’s no right to a public defender. They are targeting the most vulnerable and impoverished people to squeeze money from. How can you ever repay a debt with a 40% surcharge? You’ll be shackled to debt payments for a long, long time. We’re not sending her to jail for debt; we’re sending her to jail for failing to pay her fine which is the punishment ordered by the court. They’re not set with an eye to the convicted’s ability to pay. And the example in the article is even more retarded. That guy racked up a huge number of DWI fines and traffic tickets, and we’re supposed to feel sorry when they eventually clap that dude in jail? This isn’t debtor’s prison in the sense of anything Dickensian. Back then, you were liable to jail time for simply not paying common debts- like your car note, mortgage, credit cards, etc… This is failing to pay legally mandated penalties. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/8 "2013-05-27T20:03:29Z")
Monetary fines make no sense in a legal system except for as restitution. The same fine can be life destroying to one person and not cause another a second thought depending on their income. And they tend to have a corruptive effect on the courts and police. These should all be replaced with community service. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/9 "2013-05-27T20:21:51Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > These should all be replaced with community service. Which would also have different levels of impact on defendants. An unemployed defendant loses nothing but time. An employed defendant loses a paycheck, and possibly a job. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/10 "2013-05-28T01:53:57Z")
No sympathy. She is in jail for being violent, lazy and stupid. She did this to herself. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/11 "2013-05-28T03:38:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Which would also have different levels of impact on defendants. An unemployed defendant loses nothing but time. An employed defendant loses a paycheck, and possibly a job. It’s still vastly better than a monetary fine, both more equitable and also more flexible - you can serve at night or on weekends. and the point isn’t just punishment, it’s reformation and civic restitution. The fact that isn’t perfect is no reason not to have it replace something much worse. There may be a better alternative, if you have something in mind, I’d love to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/12 "2013-05-28T04:24:21Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Monetary fines make no sense in a legal system except for as restitution. The same fine can be life destroying to one person and not cause another a second thought depending on their income. And they tend to have a corruptive effect on the courts and police. These should all be replaced with community service. Enter the [day-fine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine) which _is_ based on the offender’s income. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/13 "2013-05-28T05:56:12Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > It’s still vastly better than a monetary fine, both more equitable and also more flexible - you can serve at night or on weekends. and the point isn’t just punishment, it’s reformation and civic restitution. The fact that isn’t perfect is no reason not to have it replace something much worse. There may be a better alternative, if you have something in mind, I’d love to hear it. In my state, those that are unable to pay the fine even on a payment plan are allowed to work it off. They report to a work center, and are assigned things like picking up trash, mowing grass on public land, washing police cars, etc. The downside is the work program costs the city/county more money to supervise the workers/administer the program than is saved by the “cheap labor”, particularly when some of the tasks are essentially “makework” type things. How many times does a squad car really need to be washed in a week? Etc. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-debtor-s-prisons-in-the-u-s/659461/14 "2013-05-28T21:03:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Tyeisha Gamble, 26, who lives on Philadelphia’s north side with her 2-year-old son and her boyfriend, said she has been trying to extricate herself from the system for seven years. If she’s been in terrible debt for 7 years, she probably shouldn’t have been making babies 2 years ago. > [@](#): > > In 2006 she was convicted of simple assault, a misdemeanor, after an altercation with a co-worker. Included in her criminal conviction – her first and only – were about $500 in court-ordered fees and fines. Don’t do the crime if you can’t pay the fine. Or you know, just don’t assault people at all. > [@](#): > > She said she did her best to pay her debt while attending school, racking up more debt with student loans, but fell behind. Maybe pay your existing debts before racking up new ones? Maybe don’t go to school if you can’t afford it? > [@](#): > > In 2011, she earned her BA in fashion marketing from the Philadelphia Institute of Art. But Gamble said her criminal record, which can’t be expunged unless she pays her debt, has made it nearly impossible to land a job in her field. Then go work flipping burgers until your debt is paid. And what a worthwhile degree to have gone into further debt for. Just what the world needs, more fashion marketers… Being poor and making very bad life choices shouldn’t be a get out of jail (or debt) free card.