# The Return of Fascism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298 "2015-12-13T02:20:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/21 "2015-12-14T07:09:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Borrow-and-spend always works great in the short term. But it’s economic foolishness. In the eight years of Reagan’s presidency, the national debt went from $908,000,000,000 to $2,602,000,000,000. I was tempted to respond by asking how much the USA has borrowed during the Obama Administration. But that’s beside the point. In his OP, Lumpy accused Reagan of “strip-mining the middle class”, and said that this was the beginning of the steps to fascism. I pointed out that this was false. The middle class did wonderfully under Reagan, so Lumpy’s narrative is untrue. The deficit also increased under Reagan, a fact which has no relevance to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/22 "2015-12-14T10:22:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I just don’t see contemporary America being a fertile ground for fascism. Fascism needs a widespread sense of loss and despair. We’re basically too well off to want to overthrow our current system. I have been told by Americans that there is a great deal of poverty in America. Life for millions is far removed from the shiny shiny American TV soaps. I believe that there is more discontent that you think ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/23 "2015-12-14T10:35:55Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I was tempted to respond by asking how much the USA has borrowed during the Obama Administration. > > But that’s beside the point. In his OP, Lumpy accused Reagan of “strip-mining the middle class”, and said that this was the beginning of the steps to fascism. I pointed out that this was false. The middle class did wonderfully under Reagan, so Lumpy’s narrative is untrue. The deficit also increased under Reagan, a fact which has no relevance to this thread. If the OP ever decides to return to this thread, perhaps he can explain what he meant by “strip-mining the middle class”. I’d be interested in hearing it. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/24 "2015-12-14T11:00:05Z")
I am not for or against this article and I am not sitting on the fence I agree there is a gulf between right and left that needs to be bridged but this is only a very small part of the problem. The ordinary people are waking up to the fact that they are being shafted by the LibLabCon trick ( Liberals, Labour and Conservatives) There has got to be change that will raise the living standards of working people, you cannot have a situation where a hard working person takes a paycheck home that will not support their family. I do not believe in the politics of envy just a fare days pay for a fare days work and that is not happening in the UK. We are heading for a revolution in the way that we are governed I hope this will happen because those who rule us will realise that the gravy train for them and their friends is over not because they ignore the views of the working class (we are the majority) then it will get messy ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/25 "2015-12-14T11:23:57Z")
Is this the true face of fascism in our world How much more depraved can ISIS get? Group’s Sharia judges order children with Down’s syndrome and other disabilities to be killed in chilling echo of the Nazis • ISIS has reportedly issued fatwa ordering disabled children be killed • Iraqi activist group claims more than 38 disabled children already killed • Nazis murdered disabled because they were a ‘burden’ • See our full news coverage on ISIS at [ISIS: Latest news, breaking stories and comment | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/isis) By Emma Glanfield for MailOnline Published: 06:42, 14 December 2015 | Updated: 11:12, 14 December 2015 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/26 "2015-12-14T11:29:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I was tempted to respond by asking how much the USA has borrowed during the Obama Administration. > > But that’s beside the point. You may be aware that the topic of your level of knowledge is being debated in another current thread. As a data point for that discussion please answer this multiple choice question: The deficit under Obama is primarily due to events during the Administration of which President? (A) George W. Bush (B) Barack H. Obama (C) Other ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/27 "2015-12-14T12:18:50Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Is this the true face of fascism in our world > > How much more depraved can ISIS get? Group’s Sharia judges order children with Down’s syndrome and other disabilities to be killed in chilling echo of the Nazis > • ISIS has reportedly issued fatwa ordering disabled children be killed > • Iraqi activist group claims more than 38 disabled children already killed > • Nazis murdered disabled because they were a ‘burden’ > • See our full news coverage on ISIS at [ISIS: Latest news, breaking stories and comment | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/isis) > By Emma Glanfield for MailOnline > Published: 06:42, 14 December 2015 | Updated: 11:12, 14 December 2015 All true, and yet… in the Western World, most children with Down’s Syndrome are killed before birth. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/28 "2015-12-14T12:29:49Z")
People can argue about whether Reagan was a great President and/or whether he brought prosperity, but none of that has much to do with the question of whether fascism poses a threat in modern America. I’m on the record as saying no, and that remains true, in my opinion, no matter WHAT you think of Reagan. (If anyone cares, I’m a conservative Republican who thinks Reagan was a good but highly overrated President; he never did, or even TRIED to do, the things his admirers most wanted or his enemies most feared.) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/29 "2015-12-14T12:48:48Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > I have been told by Americans that there is a great deal of poverty in America. Life for millions is far removed from the shiny shiny American TV soaps. I believe that there is more discontent that you think Yeah, there are alot of poor but not 3rd world terms of poor. The poor here have food, shelter, and most of the basics. Often they own tvs, cell phones, dvds and oddly enough, many are overweight. That is a far cry from depression era US poverty levels with “Hoovervilles” and the national guard used to put down strikes. The problem in the US now is all the people with a high amount of debt from getting their college degrees and dealing with the mortgage problems. High rents in many areas also keep people down. Maybe not to poverty levels but definitely keeps them from building up savings and investments. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/30 "2015-12-14T15:40:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I just don’t see contemporary America being a fertile ground for fascism. Fascism needs a widespread sense of loss and despair. We’re basically too well off to want to overthrow our current system. But, [white middle-aged Americans are indeed suffering from a widespread sense of loss and despair](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=774700). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/31 "2015-12-14T16:13:15Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Is this the true face of fascism in our world No. No, it isn’t. It’s terrible in all sorts of ways, but it’s not fascism. [Which the Daily Mail ought to know better than anyone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail#/media/File:%22Hurrah_for_the_Blackshirts!%22.jpg). On the more general topic, one can certainly see some of the elements that led to the rise of fascism bubbling up in the general American populace but they are not sufficiently widely-held, conditions are not sufficiently conducive to their spread, opposition to them is much stronger than they were in 1930s Europe, and of course we have the benefit of historical hindsight now. Which is not to say that some people won’t express sentiments that sound an awful lot like fascism, but that’s America for you - filled with all sorts of people, good and bad. Incidentally, there’s currently a Kickstarter for a game called “[Secret Hitler](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxtemkin/secret-hitler)” which looks extremely clever and pits (secret) liberals against (secret) fascists in a race to install or defeat a fascist government. There’s a little video and all. Disclaimer: I’m not associated with it but have thrown money at it; it’s already hit its funding goal and is way into stretch goal territory by now. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/32 "2015-12-14T16:29:25Z")
The economics in the link are laughable. If you look at his charts the percentage of people defined as poor has gone up 16% while the percentage of people defined as rich has gone up 50%. That is not going to make people despair and lose hope. What he gets right is the rise of extremist populism. Yet because of his pop-Marxism he totally misses the reason for it. The reason is immigration. There exists in every country a sizable portion of the electorate that wants little to no immigration but they are not being represented. In the US the Democrat party is totally all in on amnesty for illegal immigration and as many immigrants as can fit through the border. The republican establishment is so afraid of alienating the Latino vote that they want to pass an amnesty as quickly as possible to get the issue of the table. In Europe the situation is even worse, the left parties want as many immigrants as possible and as few national borders while the center right just wants the issue gone so no one can accuse them of racism. Since no respectable politicians want to touch the immigration issue it is left to the non-respectable politicians ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/33 "2015-12-14T16:38:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What he gets right is the rise of extremist populism. Yet because of his pop-Marxism he totally misses the reason for it. The reason is immigration. There exists in every country a sizable portion of the electorate that wants little to no immigration but they are not being represented. In the US the Democrat party is totally all in on amnesty for illegal immigration and as many immigrants as can fit through the border. The republican establishment is so afraid of alienating the Latino vote that they want to pass an amnesty as quickly as possible to get the issue of the table. In Europe the situation is even worse, the left parties want as many immigrants as possible and as few national borders while the center right just wants the issue gone so no one can accuse them of racism. > Since no respectable politicians want to touch the immigration issue it is left to the non-respectable politicians Plus ça change - [We’ve been here before](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/08/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices) > [@](#): > > WHAT THE PAPERS KEEP ON SAYING > > “There landed yesterday at Southampton from the transport Cheshire over 600 so-called refugees, their passages having been paid out of the Lord Mayor’s Fund. . .There was scarce a hundred of them that had, by right, deserved such help, and these were the Englishmen of the party. The rest were Jews. . .They fought and jostled for the foremost places at the gangways. . .When the Relief Committee passed by they hid their gold and fawned and whined, and, in broken English, asked for money for their train fare.” > Daily Mail, February 3, 1900 > > “It was 8.10pm on Christmas Day when the first mob struck. There were around 150 of them, howling and yelling as they made their way to the French mouth of the Channel Tunnel.” > Daily Mail, December 27, 2001 > > “‘The way stateless Jews from Germany are pouring in from every port of this country is becoming an outrage . . .’ In these words, Mr Herbert Metcalfe, the Old Street magistrate, yesterday referred to the number of aliens entering the country through the ‘back door’ - a problem to which the Daily Mail has repeatedly pointed.” > Daily Mail, August 20, 1938 > > “Swamped immigration officials are kicking out just TWELVE new bogus asylum seekers a month - out of 3,200 who should be sent packing.” > The Sun, February 14, 2001 > > “A typically baffling illustration of the difficulty is the fact that Britain now has more Jews than Germany ever had. If a further accretion of, say, 100,000 of them come into the country, how could the danger be averted of an anti-Jewish feeling here?” > The Observer, July 31, 1938 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/34 "2015-12-14T16:50:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Actually racial minorities (blacks, Hispanics, and Asiatics) express more optimism about the future in polls compared to at least poorer whites-which makes sense since while things may be bad for them, they’ve nonetheless been improving compared to not that long ago. Good point, and actually I knew that, rendering my post doubly strange. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/35 "2015-12-14T17:00:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In the US the Democrat party is totally all in on amnesty for illegal immigration and as many immigrants as can fit through the border. It’s _Democratic_ party, and no we aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/36 "2015-12-14T17:22:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > … the Democrat party … I’ve seen at least a dozen mentions that many Democrats find this incorrect term offensive. Have you noticed those objections? Do you continue to use this incorrect name deliberately? Mods, can we refer to the other party as the Repugnican Party? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/37 "2015-12-15T07:33:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yeah, there are alot of poor but not 3rd world terms of poor. The poor here have food, shelter, and most of the basics. Often they own tvs, cell phones, dvds and oddly enough, many are overweight. > > That is a far cry from depression era US poverty levels with “Hoovervilles” and the national guard used to put down strikes. > > The problem in the US now is all the people with a high amount of debt from getting their college degrees and dealing with the mortgage problems. High rents in many areas also keep people down. Maybe not to poverty levels but definitely keeps them from building up savings and investments. On the estate where I live 1 in 4 children live under the poverty line, not 3rd world poverty admittedly but a poverty in context with the minimum standard of living that children should be able to expect in the U.K. Many families are relying on food banks and clothing exchanges for the basics. Yes many of them do have tvs, phones, and DVD’s mostly purchased when they were in work. Yes many are overweight but I put this more to bad diet than gluttony. Because they do not go to work they start to lead sedentary life styles and put on the pounds. One of our projects for next year funds permitting (grants) is to install a outdoor gym with free use for all and overcome the exorbitant gym fee’s that nobody can afford. Two of our projects the internet café and the job clubs are losing membership due to people getting back in to work, low paid work alas as employers will only pay the governments minimum wage which is far to low considering the cost of living (petrol 8 dollars a gallon a new pair of work shoe’s 40 dollars, jeans and t-shirt 35 dollars) Not third world poverty but true hardship. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/38 "2015-12-15T14:18:55Z")
I think it’s outrageous that so many people on this thread don’t know fuck all about Fascism, and so readily confuse it with tyranny. Also, thinking that only the right can have tyrants. Go home; if you’re quiet enough, nobody will throw things at you. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/39 "2015-12-15T16:15:41Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Any time an officer gets physical with a citizen (whether justified or not) it gets broadcast to the whole world and outrage ensues. Outrage for some, “that thug deserved it!” for others. Of course, it’s hardly a neat left-right divide; just look at you and **Smapti**. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If the OP ever decides to return to this thread, perhaps he can explain what he meant by “strip-mining the middle class”. I’d be interested in hearing it. I assume he is referring to short-term growth generated by loosening controls on credit and creating the conditions for credit, housing and other bubbles. Under those conditions, the middle class appears to be prospering but any gains are wiped out in the inevitable contraction that follows. We saw the same thing under Bush II. I think “strip-mining” is a bit strong; I think those policies are a well-meaning effort to grow the economy overall. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298/40 "2015-12-15T17:28:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You may be aware that the topic of your level of knowledge is being debated in another current thread. As a data point for that discussion please answer this multiple choice question: > > The deficit under Obama is primarily due to events during the Administration of which President? > (A) George W. Bush > (B) Barack H. Obama > (C) Other B. Obama has been in office 7 years. For roughly half a year of that the government operated under a budget signed by George W. Bush; ever since then it’s been budgets signed by Obama. (Not that Obama, as a Senator, ever opposed most Bush’s big-spending ways.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-fascism/740298.md?page=3)