# The Return of the King thoughts - SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559 "2003-12-17T17:05:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/61 "2003-12-18T20:04:54Z")
OK, maybe that wasn’t too clear. What I meant was “I hope this encourages the Hollywood types to stop underestimating their audience.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/62 "2003-12-18T20:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\* > Fuck. I can’t believe they did it. Lord of the Rings. Live action. Three movies in three years. And it was _good_! Holy shit! I _do_ believe in miracles! I do! I do! \*\* I second this - my thought exactly on leaving the theatre. Qubbles, smibbles. Three years ago I would have bet that they would have been done much, much worse. Everyone who worked on this movie, kudos to you. You far exceeded expectations … I for one thought the trilogy was unfilmable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/63 "2003-12-18T20:18:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, nobody unfamilliar with the books had any clue what was going on with the crazy king guy. It just seemed totally weird and out of place. That whole subplot could have been cut without harm, I think. Very valid criticism. You really had to see the extra scenes in the TTT, EE version, to get an idea of what’s going on with Denethor (aka, the crazy king). But even then, PJ didn’t handle that character will in the movies. In the books, he’s a much “bigger” character and the whole issue with his using the _palantir_ makes his part in the story more integral to the plot. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/64 "2003-12-18T20:33:47Z")
“Boromir dies in the first book/movie. He was a member of the Fellowship.” Yes I know but I was referring to the fellowship who started off alive in the third film. And Boromir is a partially unsympathetic character anyway. About Gandalf I understand there is an important distinction between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White in the books but it’s dealt with only cursorily in the films and as you say he is pretty much the same character. But more than the fact that all eight of them survive it is the repeated use of the near-death device which I found tedious and artificial. Especially considering that the film-makers chose to add a couple more than the book: the Aragorn fake death in TTT and the Arwen near-death in this one. Having said all this I still think LOTR as a whole is a great film. Up till the final eagle rescue I really liked ROTK a lot as well. And now that I know the ending in advance I probably won’t mind it so much next time. ---
**Author:** ![Sonyadora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sonyadora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonyadora)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/65 "2003-12-18T21:34:47Z")
> [@](#): > > **Munch** > Both of these are quite explicit in the book. I’m aware of that, but the green light seemed to have no purpose in the movie (not that it had much of one in the book) and in addition, looked cheesy. Cutting or changing purposeless, silly, or cheesy things from a story when making an adaptation is a good thing. The spotlight thing, as I said, couldn’t really have been done another way, it’s just that I find that fact unfortunate, because it took some of the audience out of the story (I wasn’t the only one giggling). But these are just nitpicks. If you want to talk about the movie’s problems, I’d say the editing is the massive minus in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/66 "2003-12-18T22:25:52Z")
Sonyadora wrote: > [@](#): > > The Bad: > […snip…] > So much for Saruman the mighty wizard. “oh he’s got no power anymore” is a total copout. Would it have killed them to cut out 30 seconds of Oliphant combat to wrap up this plot thread? Yes, it would! Not mentioning what happened to Saruman after the fall of the walls of Isengard is the BEST thing they could have done, ONCE the decision was made not to include the Scouring. You see, at least now I can tell myself that at least the movies didnt claim the Scouring DIDNT happen, just they didnt show it. Whereas if Saruman had died at Orthanc, that sort of eliminates that. And plus, if you DO show Saruman not dying at Orthanc, but walking away, then it raises a bigger question in the minds of the audiences than if it is simply ignored. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/67 "2003-12-19T04:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \* > \*\*Dare we hope that someone with some money in the Hollywood hills will get a clue? > > “It never was much of a hope.” \*\* “Almost certain death. Slim chance of victory. What are we waiting for?” OK, it doesn’t quite work here, but it’s such a great line that I had to use it _somewhere_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/68 "2003-12-19T08:12:59Z")
A few quick comments: \*Funny that the shortest book (if you don’t count the tons of appendices) produced the longest movie. Makes me wish they’d had time for Saruman. My butt was numb anyway, I liked him a lot and a few minutes wouldn’t have mattered. \*Yes, too many endings, by about 5. \*Very cool things: the Dead Army, the look of Minas Tirith, Legolas wasting the oliphaunt (could’ve been cheesy, but it was just so damn cool), the comic relief being well-placed and well-done. \*Not so cool: so much slow-mo. The movie was 3:20 long, it did NOT need to slow down more. Especially in long doses like the reunion scene. Also, Gandalf bopping Denethor TWICE seemed a bit funny, and Denethor’s death was a bit over-the-top. And as I said, I missed Saruman even though they did fine with tying it up. \*The thing I most disliked about the last movie was Gollum’s conversation with himself. I thought it was goofy. This time, I thought it worked great. Opening the movie with him worked for me, and this time, he seemed very sinister as opposed to silly when talking to himself. I quite liked the reflection thing. \*Final summary, with all three movies done: I agree with **Miller** and **Malthus**. Someone made movies of the _Lord of the Rings series_, and amazingly, the movies did justice to the material. These were really good cinema, and while everyone has their quibbles and such, overall I don’t think any fan could have hoped for much more than we got. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/69 "2003-12-19T13:07:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tremmie \* > \*\*Arwen’s fate WAS shown on one of the previous movies (sorry i usually zone out during the Arwen scenes so i can’t remember which one) but you can see her mourning over the body of a really old Aragorn and then wandering by herself through the woods of Lorien. > \*\* Was it in the long version of the movies?? I didn’t see this scene, and only watched the short version of the movies… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/70 "2003-12-19T13:26:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Archergal \* > \*\*I though Legolas on the Mumak was just stupid. Fully agree. The scene was plain ridiculous, IMO. But so were many scenes where huge monsters were breaking/killing/sendind flying in the air everything around them. > [@](#): > > I also hated the Mumakil there on the battlefield, and the Rohirrim charging them. So did I. > [@](#): > > Now that I’ve seen all three films, the only movie I really think that was true to the book was FOTR. I do agree again. The director took more and more liberties with the story in the second and (especially) third movies. And while I clearly understood the reasons why such or such change had been made in the first movie (say, Arwen being given much more importance), I just couldn’t understand several of the changes made in the third one (like the Elrond/Aragorn scene I already mentionned). I for the battle/action scenes, I’m highly critical of them. There was way to more emphasis on individual heroic actions, ridiculous jokes (Gimli), and huge-monsters-destroying-everything. While in the books, battles revolved mainly large scale battle, tragic deaths, fear and despair. For instance, the charge of the Rohirrim was great, but the war mammoth brought down single-handely by Legolas and Gimli comment about it counting only as one was plain ludicrous and destroyed the feeling of fate, heroism and tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/71 "2003-12-19T14:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > **I for the battle/action scenes, I’m highly critical of them. There was way to more emphasis on individual heroic actions, ridiculous jokes (Gimli), and huge-monsters-destroying-everything. While in the books, battles revolved mainly large scale battle, tragic deaths, fear and despair.** Again, though, there’s a difference between what works in a book and what works in a movie. In a movie, large scale battles tend to come across as “People we don’t know doing stuff we don’t care about.” The people we don’t know get pushed into the background to make room for the ones we do know. I think PJ and company made a huge effort to satisfy the readers of the books. However, they couldn’t make the movie just for us, and frankly, I’m glad they didn’t. Loads of people who would never have read the books have come to see the movies. Maybe they don’t walk away knowing why the palantir was so important, but they pick up on the bigger things, like the idea that the smallest people can make the biggest difference, or that all can be redeemed. And if having Gimli crack wise or having Legolas do some outrageous stunt is the price I have to pay to get so many in the theatres, then I pay it gladly. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/72 "2003-12-19T14:53:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Archergal \* > \*\*I also hated the Mumakil there on the battlefield, and the Rohirrim charging them. > \*\* The audience I saw the film with loved that whole sequence, and I am fairly certain most will. They also cheered Legolas’ attack on the Mumak. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/73 "2003-12-19T14:56:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*I for the battle/action scenes, I’m highly critical of them. There was way to more emphasis on individual heroic actions, ridiculous jokes (Gimli), and huge-monsters-destroying-everything. While in the books, battles revolved mainly large scale battle, tragic deaths, fear and despair. For instance, the charge of the Rohirrim was great, but the war mammoth brought down single-handely by Legolas and Gimli comment about it counting only as one was plain ludicrous and destroyed the feeling of fate, heroism and tragedy. \*\* Though of course it didn’t for the vast majority of viewers. Jackson handled the battles magnificently and had he treated them as the book had, the movies would have been horribly boring. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/74 "2003-12-19T14:59:15Z")
I loved it. FoTR is still my favorite, but this was much better than the theatrical release of TTT…and i expect great things from the DVD (the houses of healing, mouth of sauron, etc.) The only thing that I found funny was the treatment of Denethor. Seemed like he was just there to be beaten down by Gandalf- there’s no real feel for him as an implacable, dread lord. Denethor: I rule here! Tremble before me! Gandalf: Bad Monkey! _thwack_ -stonebow, Tolkien geek ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/75 "2003-12-19T15:49:11Z")
I’m almost certain The Fate of Arwen is in the theatrical release. It happens when she’s arguing with Elrond… and he gives a big angry speech about what’s going to happen to her, you see Aragorn lying state, and Arwen standing veiled at his funeral momument, with dead leaves swirling about… then her walking in an empty forest (it doesn’t look like Lorien, actually it looks like Ithilen with the pine trees.). I re-read ROTK last night and was really happy to find certain transposed lines… “Shadowfax will show them the meaning of haste” Wormtongue’s dialog with Eowyn (originally in the book as Eomer trying to understand why Eowyn doesn’t want to stay at home, and Gandalf trying to explain it to him. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/76 "2003-12-19T16:05:41Z")
Damit, why did that post. I hit “backspace” not “return.” _The Backspace of the King_ does not strike me as an inspiring movie. During Pippin’s Secret Torch Lighting mission, my friend – who has never read LOTR but does do a lot of RPG-ing – said “halflings have a racial bonus for stealth” and I replied “don’t forget the elvish cloak. That’s gotta be another +2” 🙂 Don’t worry we whispered really quietly. I thought it was awesome… I did notice the timeline problems and was annoyed by the tissue-paper walls of Minas Tirith (in the book is says specifically that the walls were of such strength that they could not be destroyed by any art then known. The orcs lobbed fireballs _behind_ the walls.) The only other thing I _really_ missed was Merry offering his sword formally to Theoden. Oh, and Merry having to stagger in on his own power after helping slay the Witch King. And if it had been me, I would have played Eowyn with more steely resolve and less “what the hell am I doing?” I’m sure Houses of Healing will be in the EE – Eowun & Faramir were standing together, giving each other Significant Looks during the Coronation. Basically minor quibbles to an awesome movie. I cried when Pippin and Merry were separated. I cried at the end. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/77 "2003-12-28T08:10:24Z")
Just got back from my second viewing, and wanted to point out that Treebeard _did_ say, “Bless my bark!” instead of what I thought he had said. So I guess the Palantir didn’t bop him on the head after all… ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/78 "2003-12-28T11:08:20Z")
While, just my two copper piece **The Good** _Minas Tirth_ - You thought you saw it all - Rivendell, Edoras, Lothlorien, Helm’s Deep, Isengard (before and after) - but no, they wait till ROTK to drop Minas Tirth on us. Majestic, breath-taking, the White Tower of the Guard is most awesome locale within the movie. The Minas Tirth theme was especially well done too. Inspiring, hopeful, but pogiant. _Gollum_ - It was half-way through the movie when I realise I have utterly forgotten Gollum as a CG creation. It’s very scary. _Dunharrow_ - Talk about a good spot for a military camp! The Muster of Rohan really paints Theoden as King, and he did a good job to boot. _Pelennor Fields_ - Enough have been said about this, but I have to agreed - the most awesome battle scene ever! The Mumakil vs. Riders scene is not strictly from the book but the way the Riders handle Mumakil is more or less the same (arrows at the eye/head) The charge of the Rohorrim was electrifying. _Gandalf_ - PJ managed to protray Gandalf as counsellor and friend at the same time, something which the original RoTK wasn’t so great at. In RoTK, Gandalf is very much stern, business-like and etc. In the movie he is protrayed as anxious and doubtful. The scene of him sitting, all helpless, at the bench leaning against his staff in the sunset is brilliantly moving. It also amplify his role as a counsellor who could not interfere with the free will of anyone. **The Bad** _Minas Morgul_ - Understand that the scene with the lighting flaring from the tower is in the book, but PJ gotten a bit over dramatic The part of Gandalf comforting Pippin, however, is masterstroke. Even the almighty Gandalf is hard-pressed for explanatons at time. _The Path of the Dead_ - They turned one of the great moment in the book into something deprived of suspense and mystery. Which is suprisingly, considering that PJ is well-known for horror flicks. Having Aragorn coming to the Stone of Erech is, and not revealing the entire deal about the Dead might be much better _The Army of the Dead at Pelennor Field_ - I have mixed feelings about this. The good - well, the effects are well-done, it produces an adrenaline rush. The bad - it’s just too desu ex machina a moment. Consider that most of the time, the battles were deep-rooted in reality even for a fantasy show, then all of a sudden you have the entire battle won by ghostly warriors. It does looks a bit cheesy but, well, it’s a **reasonable** adaption, but could have been done differently. And having ghosts in broad daylight is just strange. _Denethor_ - Agreeded, a wasted a character. The Denethor in the book at least have a sort of grim determination to go die dying, which is before Faramir was wounded. Well, I guess, that’s all… ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/79 "2003-12-28T17:19:34Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* I got overtones of _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_ there (“Frodo… Frodo… Let it go.”). However, I liked it… it showed that, even to the end, even as it was being destroyed, the Ring was still causing Frodo to lust after it. [QUOTE] Haha. I just saw the movie yesterday, and at this point I leaned over to my friend and said (so quietly that no one else could hear, of course) in my best Elsa immitation, “I can almost reach it…”. I loved the movie, and thought it was better in many ways than either of the previous two. But, then again, this contained the fruition of things set in motion in the first two, so it would be pretty sad if it wasn’t a more exciting movie. Though I really enjoyed myself, there were a lot of things I had problems with. I think I need another 24 hours’ or so rumination before I enumerate them all. I will say, as someone else has said here, that I loved the beacon lighting sequence, and I also liked the Rohirim riding down into battle. That, IMO, was the best battle sequence of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559/80 "2003-12-28T17:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RikWriter \* > \*\*Though of course it didn’t for the vast majority of viewers. Jackson handled the battles magnificently and had he treated them as the book had, the movies would have been horribly boring. \*\* Eh, I don’t know. Many a director has done Civil War/WWI/WWII/Vietnam battle sequences that have been very moving and very good at conveying the grand scale of tradgedy and heroism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-return-of-the-king-thoughts-spoilers/219559.md?page=5)