# The rich continue to plunder the middle class **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541 "2006-08-28T16:20:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/21 "2006-08-28T18:27:35Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > So you’re saying that you don’t mind if tens of millions of people take a major hit in their standard of living? It doesn’t matter that many American workers might eventually be reduced to Third World conditions? Can we avoid hysterical strawmen in this discussion? Why don’t you make a suggestion as to what you think needs to be done, and then lets see if it’ll work. > [@](#): > > In the nineteenth century we were told that economic reality meant that children as young as six or seven had to work ten hours a day six days a week in mines and factory for near-starvation wages. You’ll have to pardon me if I’m somewhat skeptical of lasseiz-fair economics. To some extent that was true. The US was a poor, third-world country during much of the 19th century. We were rich in resources, and had a steady supply of immigrants with little or no skills. That changed towards the end of the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/22 "2006-08-28T18:28:42Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > BTW, not just “rich” people bebfit from increased profits. Many, many middle class people have reitrement funds and other general savings in the stock market or mutual funds. But the statistics clearly show that more wealth, in both relative and absolute terms, is accumulating in the hands of the wealthy. Some middle class people may benefit from increased profits, but is it enough to offset the loss to others? And the working class should be a concern here, too, not just the middle class. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/23 "2006-08-28T18:37:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can we avoid hysterical strawmen in this discussion? Why don’t you make a suggestion as to what you think needs to be done, and then lets see if it’ll work. “Hysterical strawmen”? Where? Do you think the US has some kind of magical protection against economic catastrophe? I see no reason why a sudden collapse like the Great Depression could not happen again. > [@John Mace](#): > > To some extent that was true. The US was a poor, third-world country during much of the 19th century. We were rich in resources, and had a steady supply of immigrants with little or no skills. That changed towards the end of the 19th century. And it changed because of political action, not because working people sat around waiting for the free market to work its magic. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/24 "2006-08-28T18:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a tough problem, and the solution is not to just require employers to pay unskilled workers more-- unless you want to force the elimination of even more unskilled jobs either thru automation or outsourcing. This article isn’t\*\* just \*\* about unskilled workers which surprised me because I thought that too before I read the article. It’s saying even wages in the 80th percentile are affected. > [@](#): > > Economists offer various reasons for the stagnation of wages. Although the economy continues to add jobs, global trade, immigration, layoffs and technology — as well as the insecurity caused by them — appear to have eroded workers’ bargaining power. > > Trade unions are much weaker than they once were, while the buying power of the minimum wage is at a 50-year low. And health care is far more expensive than it was a decade ago, causing companies to spend more on benefits at the expense of wages. I’d say according to this article all but the 90th percentile are affected, so the OP is pretty accurate. Basically the top 10% are getting richer and everyone else is getting poorer. I’m no economist and don’t know the answer. Perhaps some of the suggestions in this thread would help. I found the article was pretty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/25 "2006-08-28T18:47:05Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > “Hysterical strawmen”? Where? Do you think the US has some kind of magical protection against economic catastrophe? I see no reason why a sudden collapse like the Great Depression could not happen again. I guess we can’t avoid hysterical strawmen… > [@](#): > > And it changed because of political action, not because working people sat around waiting for the free market to work its magic. Yes, but not the way you’re thinking. Nineteenth century America was not, as is commonly thought, a free-market paradise. Slavery was legal for 2/3 of that century, for Christ’s sake. The laws were heavy slanted towards land owners and corporations. Union busting by physical means was common and workers really couldn’t organize. Once the laws allowed for workers to organize, they were able to negotiate in strength. Unions (or the ability of workers to orgnanize) are as much a necessary feature of a free-market system as is anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/26 "2006-08-28T18:57:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > In order to be robbed, someone must take something that belongs to you. Can you tell us what that something is in this case? Come now, John. Surely you are not so economically naive as to think that one group of people can do economic harm to another only by going into their houses and stealing their DVD players and whatnot. What is happening is that corporations are making more money and they’re rewarding stockholders and fatcat CEOs with big dividends and huge salaries and they’re NOT rewarding their increasingly productive employees with salaries and benefits. See, the rich stockholders and CEOs are making themselves richer, and making their middle class employees poorer, to such a stinkingly offensive extent, so ripe and redolent with greed and indifference that even the chairman of the Fed is calling them on it. Now, that’s stealing, John. > [@](#): > > Strawman. Unless, of course, you can show us a quote from one of the so-called conservatives you speak of saying that. While I can’t deliver an exact quote, here’s a thread full of free-market conservatives saying that anyone who meddles with capitalism as it’s now structured is going to cause economic ruin. The generaltenor of conservatives is to say, when any given instances of economic exploitation by the rich is cited, “That’s not the rich exploiting us, it’s just the natural operation of free market capitalism and if you wait around long enough, its effects will “trickle down” to everyone.” (OK, that’s a bit of an exagerration – few free market conservatives on this board would use “trickle down” because everyone knows that it didn’t work at all when Reagan tried it way back when. But they still use expound the CONCEPT of trickle down, just reworded.) [Here’s a thread where several conservatives relentlessly fight the notion that the rich are exploiting the middle class, and that middle class are economically useful at all.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=329835&page=2&pp=50&highlight=middle+class) Sorry, have to leave now, but there’s more of that ilk lurking about. If you actually want to have a rational debate about this subject, might I suggest you avoid the hysterical hyperbole at both ends of the spetctrum? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/27 "2006-08-28T19:02:07Z")
Could we get a definition of “rich” for the purposes of this debate? Is it based on salary, salary relative to local cost of living, net worth…? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/28 "2006-08-28T19:02:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > In order to be robbed, someone must take something that belongs to you. Can you tell us what that something is in this case? A fair share of the economy and profits that _would not exist_ without them ? > [@John Mace](#): > > This is a tough problem, and the solution is not to just require employers to pay unskilled workers more-- unless you want to force the elimination of even more unskilled jobs either thru automation or outsourcing. Won’t happen. If they _could_ eliminate more, they would have already. If technology advances so they can, they _will_. I hear this argument all the time, yet raising the minimum wage never seems to cause the waves of firings opponents of wage increases claim. Companies already pay the fewest workers the least they can, working them as hard as they can. If they could fire more they would have. If they could, they’d automate everything or go back to the good old days of slavery. > [@](#): > > Yes, but not the way you’re thinking. Nineteenth century America was not, as is commonly thought, a free-market paradise. Slavery was legal for 2/3 of that century, for Christ’s sake. The laws were heavy slanted towards land owners and corporations. Union busting by physical means was common and workers really couldn’t organize. Once the laws allowed for workers to organize, they were able to negotiate in strength. All of that is very free market. Buy and sell people, buy the laws you like, kill anyone with less money who gets in the way; the capitalists paradise, and what the Republicans want to turn America back into. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/29 "2006-08-28T19:04:04Z")
As far as I can tell (i.e. IMHO), the rich have got nothing to do with it; it’s the government that’s targetting the middle classes. Earn more than the minimum and you get hammered. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/30 "2006-08-28T19:07:52Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As far as I can tell (i.e. IMHO), the rich have got nothing to do with it; it’s the government that’s targetting the middle classes. Earn more than the minimum and you get hammered. The government is pretty much a subdivision of Corporate America these days; saying the government does something is more or less saying that the rich are doing something. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/31 "2006-08-28T19:09:33Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Come now, John. Surely you are not so economically naive as to think that one group of people can do economic harm to another only by going into their houses and stealing their DVD players and whatnot. What is happening is that corporations are making more money and they’re rewarding stockholders and fatcat CEOs with big dividends and huge salaries and they’re NOT rewarding their increasingly productive employees with salaries and benefits. See, the rich stockholders and CEOs are making themselves richer, and making their middle class employees poorer, to such a stinkingly offensive extent, so ripe and redolent with greed and indifference that even the chairman of the Fed is calling them on it. > > Now, that’s stealing, John. No, it’s not. Why are the workers more productive? Who made the investments in automation and information technology that made them more productive? I think you’re making the false assumption that more productive = working harder or = working smarter. That’s often not the case. Those workers who become more prodcutive because they have increased their skill set in areas that are valuable will get paid more. My admin (what we used to call a secretary) makes damn good money, but she’s way more skilled than her counterpart a generation ago. She can set up spreadsheets and even design web pages-- a far cry from taking dictation and typing. Those latter skills were good, but can’t hold a candle to what my admin does today because I don’t need someone to take dictation or do typing. As I said, the problem is real, but the solution isn’t obvious. Ideally, we’d be investing in better education but that only gets us so far. You can spend lots and lots of money on schools, but if parents aren’t engaged in their kid’s education, money is only going to take you part way there. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/32 "2006-08-28T19:13:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I guess we can’t avoid hysterical strawmen… It is my view that many middle and working class households have very shaky finances right now, much more so than ten to twenty years ago, and any serious economic disruption may well knock them off their feet. All I can say is, if the standard of living for the middle and working classes continue to erode, something bad must sooner or later happening. It is not at all hysterical to think that we could well have an economic catastrophe like the Great Depression again. The unthinkable has a way of happening. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/33 "2006-08-28T19:15:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As far as I can tell (i.e. IMHO), the rich have got nothing to do with it; it’s the government that’s targetting the middle classes. Earn more than the minimum and you get hammered. And why do you think they’re not targeting the rich? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/34 "2006-08-28T19:18:00Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > … something bad must sooner or later happening … That should be " … something bad must sooner or later happen … " Preview is my friend, preview is my friend, preview is my friend … :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/35 "2006-08-28T19:18:46Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No, it’s not. Why are the workers more productive? Who made the investments in automation and information technology that made them more productive? And who invented those things, and built the hardware ? The rich in those cases generally didn’t do anything a chimp with money couldn’t have done; it doesn’t morally entitle them to such disproportiate rewards, or give them a right to grind their boots in the commoner’s faces. > [@John Mace](#): > > Ideally, we’d be investing in better education but that only gets us so far. You can spend lots and lots of money on schools, but if parents aren’t engaged in their kid’s education, money is only going to take you part way there. And end up with better educated poor people, and more profits for the rich. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/36 "2006-08-28T19:26:35Z")
The irony is it is not the rich, it is the very people that are being screwed that are allowing this to happen. The blue states and the urban centers tend to be richer but vote more liberal. It’s the “fly over” states and rural districts that are electing clowns like Tom DeLay and supporting Bushco. Most of the rich people I know support raising the minimum wage and reducing outsourcing. Hell, I used to be rich for about 5 minutes and I’m a flaming liberal. America seems to be unique in that there is no left-leaning worker/labor party to balance out business interests. Instead Guns, God, and Gays seems to dominate the working stiffs’ concerns. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/37 "2006-08-28T19:27:36Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And who invented those things, and built the hardware ? People like me who live in Silicon Valley and work in the high tech business. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/38 "2006-08-28T19:30:57Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The irony is it is not the rich, it is the very people that are being screwed that are allowing this to happen. The blue states and the urban centers tend to be richer but vote more liberal. It’s the “fly over” states and rural districts that are electing clowns like Tom DeLay and supporting Bushco. Most of the rich people I know support raising the minimum wage and reducing outsourcing. Hell, I used to be rich for about 5 minutes and I’m a flaming liberal. > > America seems to be unique in that there is no left-leaning worker/labor party to balance out business interests. Instead Guns, God, and Gays seems to dominate the working stiffs’ concerns. So, you think the answer is to raise the MW and pass laws to reduce outsourcing? Can you elaborate on how that will fix this problem without creating bigger problems? I’m afraid the gov’t can only do so much, **Dan**. It’s a global economy, and you’re competing with people in China and India and the feds can’t shield you from that. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/39 "2006-08-28T19:32:35Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The irony is it is not the rich, it is the very people that are being screwed that are allowing this to happen. The blue states and the urban centers tend to be richer but vote more liberal. It’s the “fly over” states and rural districts that are electing clowns like Tom DeLay and supporting Bushco. A-yup. If you’re making less than seven figures a year and you vote Republican, you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541/40 "2006-08-28T19:32:57Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And end up with better educated poor people, and more profits for the rich. Muwhahahaha! Our evil plan is being put into effect. Soon we will rule you all! Seriously, dude, don’t expect a thoughtful response to garbage like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-continue-to-plunder-the-middle-class/370541.md?page=3)