# "The rich have no right to money as long as the poor are starving." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004 "2011-10-27T20:44:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/21 "2011-10-28T07:28:59Z")
There’s a bit in the gospels where Judas complains that some perfume used to anoint him could have been sold and the money given to the poor - it’s made clear that this wasn’t his true intent, but Jesus’ reply was interesting, because it appears fairly discompassionate - he says (words to the effect) “Nope - it’s better that this was done for me - you’ll always have poor people around”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/22 "2011-10-28T07:31:20Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > And whether it is or not, could a society thrive while embracing this view? At its most extreme level of implementation, I think not - because it removes a lot of the motivation for potentially high earners to _get_ rich. At lower levels of implementation, we already do something like this through sliding scales of taxation. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/23 "2011-10-28T12:21:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I heard a Christian say this on the BBC today. Is this paraphrased from a bible verse? > > And whether it is or not, could a society thrive while embracing this view? I believe this is a principal of the judgement of God against man’s society so yes it is a paraphrase, and the reason He will overthrow the people in power and give the spoils to the poor. In this world, it is generally not possible for man to create this without God, but a reason for praying for the Kingdom of God, where God supplies all the needs. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/24 "2011-10-28T12:32:42Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > There’s a bit in the gospels where Judas complains that some perfume used to anoint him could have been sold and the money given to the poor - it’s made clear that this wasn’t his true intent, but Jesus’ reply was interesting, because it appears fairly discompassionate - he says (words to the effect) “Nope - it’s better that this was done for me - you’ll always have poor people around”. You have that subtley wrong, but in an important way I can’t let past unopposed. Implicit here are two concepts. One is the point that jesus is basically saying, “Nope, this particular jar has been set aside for Me since the beginning.” The other is that ultimately Christianity is not some kind of utilitarian faith. There are a lot of very good things in this world, and the same logic which says, “Let’s sell/destroy/otherwise dispose of this very good thing, which exists to be enjoyed, in order that nobody suffer from any want,” is the death of humanity. If you set anything - even hungry children - up as your end-all, you will wind up destroying everything so that nobody particularly gets fulfilled. There are things worth dying for, and things worth some suffering, but even feeding the poor is not worth living for. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/25 "2011-10-28T13:24:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It is true. That child, and any like him, is suffering from parental neglect. There are social programs in the US that will prevent any child from starving as long as the parents take advantage of them and don’t squander the aid on something else. My first thought on that article was, why the fuck would you be living in _Boston_?? Boston is notoriously expensive. _I_ couldn’t afford it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/26 "2011-10-28T13:59:17Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > My first thought on that article was, why the fuck would you be living in _Boston_?? Boston is notoriously expensive. _I_ couldn’t afford it. To be fair, we know nothing about that person’s situation and they may have grown up there and don’t have the resources to leave. But yes, that does highlight some of what needs to be considered wrt a parent’s obligation to his or her child. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/27 "2011-10-28T15:20:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > As for the statement itself, at first it strikes me as naive, or maybe a non-sequitur: What does rich people having slips of paper with pictures of dead presidents on them have to do with poor people not having enough to eat? If the rich people had **food** while the poor are starving, there might be something wrong with that. But if all the rich people have is money, maybe they don’t have food because they gave the food they did have to people who needed it more than they did, in exchange for those pieces of paper with the dead presidents on them? > > At any rate, a lot depends on **why** the poor people are starving. I’d also want to know what the rich people were doing with their money. One only need accept the implicit assumption that the procurement of good typically involves the exchange of money and the rest pretty much joins up, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/28 "2011-10-28T15:27:07Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > You have that subtley wrong, but in an important way I can’t let past unopposed… I’m not really sure how you found that much to disagree with in a post that wasn’t really.making any firm theological arguments. I just (perhaps too sloppily) referred to an example where Jesus appears to take a different tack from the other places where he advises people to give everything away. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/29 "2011-10-28T17:15:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > On the contrary, the Bible strongly defends property rights (Thou shalt not steal is a direct command from God after all) while combining it with charity for the poor. > > Consider that most of the starving poor today is in Somalia and North Korea. Lest you try to turn God into a Libertarian, Jesus also endorsed taxation. Mark 12:14-17 > [@](#): > > And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? > > Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. > > And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s. > > And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/30 "2011-10-28T22:53:24Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Lest you try to turn God into a Libertarian, Jesus also endorsed taxation. Mark 12:14-17 I never said all taxation was evil or immoral. Taxation is a necessary part of funding a government and even if you disagree with a particular tax, you should be honest and pay it while its in force. That’s all Jesus is saying. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/31 "2011-10-29T00:11:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m not really sure how you found that much to disagree with in a post that wasn’t really.making any firm theological arguments. I just (perhaps too sloppily) referred to an example where Jesus appears to take a different tack from the other places where he advises people to give everything away. I may have misread the intent of your post. To me, it’s a prime example of telling people that the worth of good and kindness is not measured in in numbers. And I’m a man who loves his numbers. (Especially 3… she’s a dirty girl who likes it wild.) ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/32 "2011-10-29T00:14:48Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Lest you try to turn God into a Libertarian, Jesus also endorsed taxation. Mark 12:14-17 here is Micah 4:4 NIV > [@](#): > > Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken. notice the _his own_ bit. Not under a communal fig tree, not under Obama’s Department of Vines and Fig trees federal fig tree, not even under a corporate _cloud_ fig tree with 99% guaranteed uptime. There is no mention of any efforts by EPA to declare the oxygen and shadow generated by these fig trees as dangerous and taxable pollutants either. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/33 "2011-10-29T00:52:59Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > here is Micah 4:4 NIV > > notice the _his own_ bit. Not under a communal fig tree, not under Obama’s Department of Vines and Fig trees federal fig tree, not even under a corporate _cloud_ fig tree with 99% guaranteed uptime. There is no mention of any efforts by EPA to declare the oxygen and shadow generated by these fig trees as dangerous and taxable pollutants either. Uh, that bit is for the good ones after or during the end of times, and we will get there thanks to divine intervention, in the meantime I will go for what they told everybody to do before those days, so, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and all that Jazz” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/34 "2011-10-29T00:54:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, that bit is for the good ones after or during the end of times, and we will get there thanks to divine intervention, in the meantime I will go for what they told everybody to do before those days. I believe he was using something called sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/35 "2011-10-29T00:57:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe he was using something called sarcasm. I was not referring to his sarcasm but to the bible passage, so now go, and whoosh no more. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/36 "2011-10-29T02:20:36Z")
Having the right to personal wealth is a major aspect of everything we do, with or without the poor starving. In a twisted sense the rich need the poor, if only to set the benchmark. So it is in the intrest of the rich to keep the poor from actually starving. They can just be poor, but not starving. Everybody wins. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/37 "2011-10-29T02:27:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, that bit is for the good ones after or during the end of times, and we will get there thanks to divine intervention, in the meantime I will go for what they told everybody to do before those days, so, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and all that Jazz” so you figure that the only way to get secure property rights, a just government and low tax rates in this vale of tears is the coming of Messiah? :eek: That goes against historical record. There were plenty of such times in the history of the West - people simply forget, because that is not what the media and _educational institutions_ tell them. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/38 "2011-10-29T02:41:40Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I heard a Christian say this on the BBC today. Is this paraphrased from a bible verse? No, it’s not directly, but yes, indirectly. Christian religion allows and blesses wealth, discrimination, abuse and slavery. So do all three of the major religions in recent human history. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/39 "2011-10-29T03:48:02Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > so you figure that the only way to get secure property rights, a just government and low tax rates in this vale of tears is the coming of Messiah? :eek: Nope, what happens is that we are using the bible here in this case and if the best example you can get refers on getting that paradise only at the end of times… well, that is not very useful example to use for current ideologies to use in this world. > [@code\_grey](#): > > That goes against historical record. There were plenty of such times in the history of the West - people simply forget, because that is not what the media and _educational institutions_ tell them. Ah, good to see then a demonstration that God was not telling the truth, we do not need the end of times or the Messiah to get there. 🙂 But really, those times also included lots of injustice and that item can not be ignored as we are also dealing with bible moral lessons. So you do need some remedial history and Bible classes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004/40 "2011-10-29T08:24:47Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I may have misread the intent of your post. No problem - I didn’t really have one - except to mention what appears (at first, at least) a contrast between two different incidents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rich-have-no-right-to-money-as-long-as-the-poor-are-starving/601004.md?page=1)