# The right to bear arms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056 "2017-02-17T15:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/221 "2017-03-10T20:06:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which god? Why do you nitpick his choice of creator to try to wreck what he said? because Shodan believes in God or wishes to refer to God as his creator does not invalidate anything. Aren’t we building a Strawman? VERBETIM “_that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their **Creator** with certain unalienable Rights_” SO it is what ever God or Deity or Belief you think caused your creation. Call it God, Vishnu, Nature, Evolution, etc. Pick your own word and stop pissing on his ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/222 "2017-03-10T20:16:38Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Why do you nitpick his choice of creator to try to wreck what he said? > because Shodan believes in God or wishes to refer to God as his creator does not invalidate anything. > > Aren’t we building a Strawman? > > VERBETIM > > “_that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their **Creator** with certain unalienable Rights_” > > SO it is what ever God or Deity or Belief you think caused your creation. > Call it God, Vishnu, Nature, Evolution, etc. > Pick your own word and stop pissing on his Because that argument presumes that all gods would be granting the same inalienable rights, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/223 "2017-03-10T20:29:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because that argument presumes that all gods would be granting the same inalienable rights, doesn’t it? Well…yeah. I’m pretty sure even Crom would be ok with an inalienable right to self defense. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/224 "2017-03-10T20:35:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well…yeah. I’m pretty sure even Crom would be ok with an inalienable right to self defense. 😛 Well, that’s one god agreeing on one of those rights, but it’s a far cry from all dieties agreeing on the same list of rights, I think. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/225 "2017-03-10T20:39:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, that’s one god agreeing on one of those rights, but it’s a far cry from all dieties agreeing on the same list of rights, I think. Well, I don’t have an exhaustive list of what all gods think about this, but if you have one that doesn’t think it’s an inalienable right that would help whatever point you are trying to make here. Do you have a single god that thinks that humans shouldn’t have a right to self defense or free speech or the others? If so, I suppose we could always amend the “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” to be “except god/goddess X, who is just a pill”… ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/226 "2017-03-10T20:49:14Z")
XT, A God that does not endorse self defense - Jesus Christ. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/227 "2017-03-10T20:49:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, I don’t have an exhaustive list of what all gods think about this, but if you have one that doesn’t think it’s an inalienable right that would help whatever point you are trying to make here. Do you have a single god that thinks that humans shouldn’t have a right to self defense or free speech or the others? If so, I suppose we could always amend the “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” to be “except god/goddess X, who is just a pill”… Or we could quit presuming without any evidence whatsoever that this list is universal in nature. > [@Weisshund](#): > > SO it is what ever God or Deity or Belief you think caused your creation. > Call it God, Vishnu, Nature, Evolution, etc. > Pick your own word and stop pissing on his Not that evolution is a entity that anyone actually worships, but can you say it has bestowed that same set of rights? The same question for nature and/or Vishnu. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/228 "2017-03-10T23:35:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not that evolution is a entity that anyone actually worships, but can you say it has bestowed that same set of rights? The same question for nature and/or Vishnu. I did not call it an entity, to interject the idea is silly at best. Pointless, serves no purpose, and is irrelevant. I did not say a word about worship, the idea of worship does not even come into play,so you can stop with your adding of nonsense stuff. Question was answered, your adding of nonsense to re-ask the question does not and will not change the answer, and adds nothing to the debate. Again, you have the answer, the answer never ever changes. If we are simply going to replay episodes of Trollkins and his army of strawmen, there is no point in continuing. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/229 "2017-03-11T15:09:58Z")
> [@](#): > > “I did not call it an entity, to interject the idea is silly at best. Pointless, serves no purpose, and is irrelevant.” W #228 But worshiping a non-existent ie mythical deity isn’t? Haven’t you ever wondered? If in the Southern U.S. there are nearly all the resources available in the Northern U.S., why with an apparent intrinsic disadvantage, did the North win the U.S. “Civil War”? I don’t know the answer. But I suspect that what might seem a handicap; a 10% $tithe to a church (god) [real or imagined] for example, may elevate the donor to the point that the “remaining 90%” ends up exceeding what would otherwise have been the 100%. What other explanation is there? I’ll tell you this: it’s been many years since I’ve been to a church service. But I’ve known people that have been church-goers their entire adult lives; and some of them prosper. “god works in wondrous ways”? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/230 "2017-03-11T15:21:12Z")
Sear#229, The South had a weak central government with few regulations on the economy. Southern railroad companies all used different rail gauges as barriers to competition. In order to move supplies across country they would have to be unloaded and reloaded each time the route required transfer to another line. Combine that sort of thing with guys like Lee who wouldn’t defend other states and you have a losing proposition. Crane ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/231 "2017-03-11T15:40:24Z")
Blues & Greys each had their advantages and disadvantages. The North’s industrial advantage is well reported. When the rebel POWs were released after Appomattox some of them rode trains to get South of the Mason Dixie. Yet those former POWs were treated with more dignity than the victorious Negro troops that helped the North to victory. The latter were required to ride at the back of the train (the safest location in case of derailment). > [@](#): > > “We Negroes love our country. We fought for it. We ask only that we be treated as well as those that fought against it.” Fredric Douglass ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/232 "2017-03-11T15:48:47Z")
Yep, people are no damn good! Crane ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/233 "2017-03-11T15:55:02Z")
They’re the worst kind! ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/234 "2017-03-11T19:22:03Z")
> [@sear](#): > > But worshiping a non-existent ie mythical deity isn’t? Did i say a damned word about worshiping anything? Be it man beast interstellar gas bag corpse of jordie the flipping pig or a meat fsking Popsicle, did i say any thing about worshiping a damned thing?? If you are having trouble researching the answer, it is NO And NO i have not wondered in the context of inalienable rights at birth why the south did not win the war, because one does not have a damned thing to do with the other. I’m not even going to entertain you in that conversation, Why? Because it isnt the the conversation at hand here. And what the hell does you going to church, or not going to church have to do with the south winning the war?? And how did we get to Tithing? This is like trying to talk to Sybil ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/235 "2017-03-11T20:09:44Z")
> [@sear](#): > > They’re the worst kind! \*Up, up with people You meet 'em wherever you go Up, up with people They’re the best kind of folks to know If more people were for people All people, everywhere There’d be a lot less people to worry about And a lot more people who care.\* ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/236 "2017-03-12T01:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > “This is like trying to talk to Sybil” W #234 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/237 "2017-03-12T15:37:33Z")
Let’s define our terms. When people talk about “rights” today they mean using the force of government as a club to beat people over the head and get things that they want. The basic human rights, in this case self-defense, don’t require anyone else to perform. When someone says that health insurance or health care is a right, then they are forcing others to pay for it, or provide it. It doesn’t follow that it’s a basic human right to pick someone elses pocket now does it? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/238 "2017-03-12T15:49:57Z")
CT#237, Could you clarify that a bit. How do your definitions relate to the Constitution? Crane ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/239 "2017-03-12T16:05:56Z")
> [@](#): > > “when someone says that health insurance or health care is a right, then they are forcing others to pay for it, or provide it. It doesn’t follow that it’s a basic human right to pick someone elses pocket now does it?” ct #237 thank you ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056/240 "2017-03-13T13:29:11Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Bone, > > I apologize for my oversight and point out that your quote is an outlier, otherwise SCOTUS would no longer take gun rights cases. > > Historically facts have been based on four sources: > > 1. Authority - kings, popes, elders, priests, celebrities etc. > 2. Ancient writings - Aristotle, Bible, Galen, Koran etc. > 3. Reason - rhetorical pronouncements > 4. Independent Confirmation - research, experiment, observation, peer review > > Our current use of the term arose around 1650 and falls into category 4. Facts are information that can be independently confirmed. > > As you correctly point out, there exist undiscovered (unnamed) truths. Some in the not too distant past were: > > Quarks > DNA > Laser technology > the folded helix > > There are also unconfirmed speculations: > > Loch Ness Monster > Big Foot > Ghosts > mystical uncodified rights > > So, is the Constitution a man made method of social organization or is it a mystical document whose truths are divined by an enlightened few (category 1)? > > My list may be incomplete, in which case I invite you to add a more correct method of determining fact/truth. > > Crane Isn’t the notion of natural rights closer to category three with a large helping of category 2? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-bear-arms/780056.md?page=13)