# The right to yell "faggot" on a crowded playground **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213 "2001-05-22T21:07:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/21 "2001-05-25T01:19:19Z")
\*Originally posted by dogsbody \* \*\*Again, _december_, your source is rather plainly biased. Please find a cite (or site) that deals with the subject in a neutral fashion, one that discusses the _facts_ without throwing rhetoric around and thatagrees with your conclusion, and then I might agree you’ve got a case. For one thing, I’d like to see an image of these so-called “posters” in place and to scale, so we can see just how blatant their presence is. According to one of our other posters, the safe-zone markers is usually a sticker in the window.\*\* Yes, my source certainly is biased. I used the word "allege to question its reliability. DB, I’m not particularly passionate about this issue. Hastur questioned whether gay pride t-shirts were encouraged and whether the homophobes had won a court case. In order to try to inform him, I provided some information. I do have a passionate concern about the schools, which can be found on the “fixing inner city schools” thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2001, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/22 "2001-05-25T08:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > Yes, my source certainly is biased. I used the word "allege to question its reliability. > > DB, I’m not particularly passionate about this issue. Hastur questioned whether gay pride t-shirts were encouraged and whether the homophobes had won a court case. In order to try to inform him, I provided some information. > > I do have a passionate concern about the schools, which can be found on the “fixing inner city schools” thread. \*\* So, is your passionate concern for the students or for the heterosexuals? You stated that Gay Pride shirts were encouraged. As you cannot back that up with a citation, you have stated something untrue. With your other statements, even using the word alleged, you come off as being anti-gay. All students should be safe from harassment. All students should be honored in their diversity. One bigot who wishes to cause a problem should be singled out. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2001, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/23 "2001-05-25T11:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > \*\* > So, is your passionate concern [about inner city education] for the students or for the heterosexuals? > > You stated that Gay Pride shirts were encouraged. As you cannot back that up with a citation, you have stated something untrue. With your other statements, even using the word alleged, you come off as being anti-gay. > > All students should be safe from harassment. All students should be honored in their diversity. One bigot who wishes to cause a problem should be singled out. \*\* Hastur – I had a feeling that this is where you were coming from. I stupidly thought I was doing you a favor in providing a cite that you had asked for. Sigh! It’s amazing to attribute prejudice to reporting the content of something I read. Even if my memory was imperfect, that’s not proof of homophobia. My not providing a cite isn’t logically equivalent to my statement being untrue. This “gotcha” approach is ridiculous. If one wanted to play the game of “proving” bigotry by taking words out of context, one could read Hastur’s first comment to imply that gays are bad students. Let’s get real! **Getting Serious** 1. I believe it’s a\* fact\* that some gay activists are “pusing the envelope” in a way that’s riling up homophobes. However, in my _opinion_, pushing the envelope may be nevertheless appropriate. 2. I have no patience for a school of “tolerance” that considers it evil to mention certain facts. (E.g., recall the flap over a recent book about African-Americans’ success in athletics.) IMHO it’s unhealthy for society to ignore reality. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/24 "2001-05-26T05:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > Hastur – I had a feeling that this is where you were coming from. I stupidly thought I was doing you a favor in providing a cite that you had asked for. Sigh! > > It’s amazing to attribute prejudice to reporting the content of something I read. Even if my memory was imperfect, that’s not proof of homophobia. > > My not providing a cite isn’t logically equivalent to my statement being untrue. > > This “gotcha” approach is ridiculous. If one wanted to play the game of “proving” bigotry by taking words out of context, one could read Hastur’s first comment to imply that gays are bad students. Let’s get real! > \*\* Spare me the righteous indignation. You were asked for a cite, failed to provide one that supported your assertion that Gay Pride shirts were encouraged, and were called on it. You can save the sigh. By not providing a cite, that does make your statement untrue. My remarks could in no way be construed to imply that gay people are bad students. _You_ need to get real. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/25 "2001-05-26T05:44:43Z")
> [@](#): > > By not providing a cite, that does make your statement untrue. No, it simply means that he can’t find a cite. I think there was a whole thread about things being “proven untrue”… oh, yes, the Magic thread. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/26 "2001-05-26T14:30:14Z")
How about a cite from the kid himself? [http://straightpridewear.com/elliotsstory.html](http://straightpridewear.com/elliotsstory.html) > [@](#): > > Woodbury High School has what’s called “safe zones” where 48 to 50 teachers have volunteered to allow their classrooms to display a large poster with an inverted pink triangle (the universal symbol for “gay pride”) with the words “safe zone” on them. In these classrooms “gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender” students can express their sexual preferences without harassment, retaliation, ridicule etc. These "safe zones’ also display the following advertisement: > > WOODBURY HIGH SCHOOL SAFE STAFF TEAM > Listed below are some staff who have information about a safe and respectful environment for gay, lesbian, and bisexual, staff, and families. Confidentiality respected." (The ad then goes on to list all 48-50-classroom numbers and faculty members’ names.) > > This is clearly recruitment into the gay and lesbian lifestyle. The school banning my shirt is blatantly a violation of my Constitutional right to free speech, and an extreme double standard. Plus I was called into the Principal’s office twice and harassed because of my sexual “orientation” (translated - I am what God made me - straight and abstinent!) Seems to be that if they’re not offering equal time to the “heterosexual lifestyle” by also offering “safe zones” for kids to talk about _heterosexual_ sex without fear of retribution, then they’re “promoting homosexuality”, just a tiny bit. 😉 How about a cite from Elliot’s peer group (more or less), the University of Minnesota’s newspaper? [http://www.mndaily.com/about/hist.html](http://www.mndaily.com/about/hist.html) > [@](#): > > Throughout its 101 year existence, The Minnesota Daily has been repeatedly recognized as one of the best all-around college newspapers in the country. Its coverage of sex, politics, was and the University has won many awards. Today The Minnesota Daily remains a symbol of collegiate journalistic excellence throughout the United States. > > Today’s Daily is a student organization… And Elliot’s peer group (more or less) calls it like they see it: [http://www.daily.umn.edu/daily/2001/04/05/editorial\_opinions/e0405/](http://www.daily.umn.edu/daily/2001/04/05/editorial_opinions/e0405/) > [@](#): > > It is indeed ironic that the school would attempt to censor this form of speech, when it also openly promotes homosexuality with “safe rooms” marked with inverted pink triangles. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/27 "2001-05-26T14:41:22Z")
And, er, I’ve been sitting here reading what other people in the world have to say about Elliot Chambers and his shirt, and the consensus, in student newspapers and on other message boards, is that he’s not “one bigot who should be singled out”, but rather just a sophomore in high school who was upset by what he perceived as a strongly pro-homosexual bias in his school, which went directly against what he was being taught at home. If “all students should be safe from harassment” and “all students should be honored in their diversity”, shouldn’t the straight students be free from harassment, and honored as well as the gay ones? What would be your response if a conservative religious high school sophomore got upset by what he perceived as a strongly anti-God bias in his school (no praying, etc.) and decided to wear a “Smile if you love Jesus” shirt to school? Should the school make him take it off, as it might offend some of the atheists? Does it make him a “bigot who should be singled out”? What if his whole family was killed in the Holocaust, and the school was allowing a neo-Nazi club to meet (just another club, right?), would he be “just another bigot to be singled out” if he wore a shirt with a swastika in the middle of one of those big red “NO” circles? Couldn’t it be argued that by allowing the neo-Nazi club to meet on school grounds, the school was promoting them? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/28 "2001-05-26T18:51:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > By not providing a cite, that does make your statement untrue. > > No, it simply means that he can’t find a cite. I think there was a whole thread about things being “proven untrue”… oh, yes, the Magic thread. \*\* Spoofe… not only does that not have relevance in here, your remark is inappropriate. For someone who has criticized me for bringing things into threads that were carryovers from other threads, you are being a massive hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/29 "2001-05-26T20:46:42Z")
Whatever do you mean, Hastur? I simply pointed out that you can’t declare someone else’s comments to be “false” simply because they can’t provide evidence for them. I mentioned the thread in which this was being discussed… heck, I can go find a link to it if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/30 "2001-05-26T21:20:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Whatever do you mean, Hastur? I simply pointed out that you can’t declare someone else’s comments to be “false” simply because they can’t provide evidence for them. I mentioned the thread in which this was being discussed… heck, I can go find a link to it if you want. \*\* Spare me. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/31 "2001-05-26T23:54:25Z")
DDG your arguement does not hold water as it misses a very important fact. A closer anology than yours would be: If a neo nazi went to school and percieved “a strong jewish bias” so far that they even believed in the holocaust and had meetings to talk about this without fear of harassment! That student wants to wear a shirt proclaiming his hatred of jews, should the school make him take it off. This is an obviously pro jewish school. Now thats not exactly the same as I doubt jews would be harassed for being jews in todays enviroment. However it is alot closer than yours. To not tolerate hatred of gay people does not automatically mean the school is pro gay(unless you have a problem with people being gay and think that they shouldn’t exist). ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2001, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/32 "2001-05-27T12:15:15Z")
You’re right, my analogy breaks down somewhat. However, _your_ analogy is not 100% correct either, sorry. Wearing a T-shirt that says “Straight Pride” in the middle of a group of people who support gay-ness doesn’t necessarily mean that the wearer _hates_ gays. It just means that he’s promoting his own lifestyle. In order to see it as “gay bashing”, you’d have to meet the person who was wearing the shirt and find out what his agenda was. Clearly Elliot’s agenda wasn’t “I hate gays”, but rather “I prefer straight”. And couldn’t _this_ be viewed as “just another lifestyle option”? I’m sorry everyone seems determined to extrapolate hatred of gays from this one IMO fairly innocuous T-shirt. You can be a conservative Christian and _disapprove_ of homosexuality and still not _hate_ gays. I think a better analogy would be if a person walked into a meeting of the African Violet Society of America wearing a “Go Gloxinias!” t-shirt. Or a Cubs bar wearing a Sox t-shirt. Does it mean he _hates_ the Cubs? Or just that he prefers the Sox? ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2001, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/33 "2001-05-27T17:05:57Z")
To me I don’t see how you can see this after reading their website. Being a part of the KKK is also a lifestyle option. They claim that they don’t want gays to exist. Nazies only wanted Jews out of their country because they dissaproved of them. Nazies could want to get rid of Jews one way or another and not hate them. Likewise people like Elliot could try to make gays not exist and not hate them. Clearly Elliots agenda was not “I prefer straight” but “I hate gays” because the only refrences to being straight on that website was to claim that being straight is right and gay is wrong. Like a one way sign thats only refrence to being straight is to claim its the only way. Really I don’t see anything on the website that has to do with being straight. Just stuff that has to do with attacking gays. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2001, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213/34 "2001-05-27T23:12:11Z")
My guess-he wore the shirt to annoy people, like many teenagers. Personally, I would’ve ignored it, if that was all he did. He just wanted to get a rise out of people. At least, that’s MY theory. I could be wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-to-yell-faggot-on-a-crowded-playground/66213.md?page=1)