# The Right Wing Paranoids Are Right Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667 "2016-05-13T12:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/181 "2016-05-16T18:14:36Z")
It again comes down to; _ **Please show us actual examples of this being an issue.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/182 "2016-05-16T18:22:16Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > If six-year-old kids are too young to care if there is “mixed company” in the bathroom, why should six-year-old trans kids care? Because these are completely different problems to care about. The “problem” for people who cling to traditional notions of sex and gender is that they feel uncomfortable pooping next to people of the opposite sex. The problem for trans people is that they are required to use the wrong gender’s bathroom. Even if this did not lead to harassment, violence, ridicule, etc., it would still be just another of many wrong-genderings a young trans person is likely to be subject to in a given day. > [@inscrutable](#): > > But what about older kids? In talking with women about this issue, I have been assured that there are girls who WILL BE AFRAID to use the bathroom if there is a chance that boys (including mischievous ones) might be in there. > So then what happens to your Victim count: number of girls afraid to use the bathroom vs. number of actual transgenders? Easy. Just tell them that this policy doesn’t allow boys to use the girls room. It allows girls to use the girls room. To the extent there are cis-girls who are too afraid to poop near trans girls, then they need to be helped to get the fuck over it. Conflating that issue with the problems faced by trans girls forced to use the boys restroom reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the stakes here, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/183 "2016-05-16T18:43:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Why? > > Even assuming for the sake of argument that there were a problem in assessing the sincere gender identity of someone who is still quite young (and I suspect that the vast majority of young kids requesting a seemingly non-conforming bathroom are the ones doing it for a good reason), you would need to balance that issue against the knowledge that identifying and treating a young child by the wrong gender can be psychologically harmful, and the sooner that stops, the better. Most of us would probably rather have a few confused or mischievous cis-gendered six-year-olds using the “wrong” bathroom if it means protecting six-year-old trans kids. Why? Because the federal government should defer to parents, not 6-year-olds, when determining which gender the 6-year-old is. Title IX was well intentioned, but I don’t think it was meant to allow 6-year-olds to decide which gender they are. If Congress really wants to take that authority away from parents, then let Congress pass a new bill that does so. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/184 "2016-05-16T18:47:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The knowledge that the guy in the stall next to you might have been born a woman is causing grievous emotional and spiritual injury that would not be caused if the transgender dude in the stall next to you was also breaking a law. Ha! And they say that liberals are the ones who always worry about protecting people’s “feelings”. If “safe zones” are an abomination, then they are an abomination in bathrooms, too. Grow the fuck up. > [@](#): > > Its not my concern. It was the concern of the anti-gay folks. We didn’t address those concerns at the time because we thought they were far fetched. now that it turns out those concerns weren’t far fetched, doesn’t this mean that the concerns of the anti-gay folks were justified? No, they were never justified. They might have been prescient, but they weren’t justified. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/185 "2016-05-16T19:04:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why? Because the federal government should defer to parents, not 6-year-olds, when determining which gender the 6-year-old is. Ok. It wasn’t clear to me that your concern was about families in which the parent and child disagree about the child’s gender. That’s why I asked for clarification. Administrators can and should exercise reasonable discretion about whether a claimed gender identity is sincere. In NYC elementary schools, the rule is to follow whatever gender the child consistently asserts at school, which implies some period of time in which the child consistently identifies before they receive accommodations appropriate to that gender. Presumably, part of that inquiry involves parental input. But I disagree with you that parental input ought to be 100% determinative. If the parent of a trans kid wants to traumatize them by forcing them to adopt the opposite gender, they can pay for Catholic school. Our public schools ought not play any part in that. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Title IX was well intentioned, but I don’t think it was meant to allow 6-year-olds to decide which gender they are. If Congress really wants to take that authority away from parents, then let Congress pass a new bill that does so. This assumes that in the absence of any legislation that parents should and do have the power to determine the gender that will be used to identify their school-age child. I don’t think that’s a good assumption. Instead, the default rule for all kinds of identity–from religion to sexual orientation–is that people self-identify. Since Title IX is silent on the subject of how to determine a person’s gender, it is the burden of people claiming that parents ought to control the issue to pass legislation to make that happen. But why stop there? Shouldn’t parents also be empowered to determine the race, religion, and sexual orientation of their kids? If a ten-year-old wants to identify was Caucasian instead of Latino, as Catholic instead of Hindu, or as straight instead of gay, shouldn’t his parents have to give permission, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/186 "2016-05-16T19:25:16Z")
We’re not going to do this _exactly_ right, because, most likely, there is no such solution. But we can do a damn sight better. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/187 "2016-05-16T19:30:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > When I was in kindergarten, the school I went to didn’t have separate restrooms for boys and girls. At least not the kindergarten classrooms. We had one restroom with several stalls and no urinals. I’ve seen some examples of that, but I think it stems from the belief that pre-schoolers can’t be trusted alone in a bathroom. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/188 "2016-05-16T19:35:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its not my concern. It was the concern of the anti-gay folks. We didn’t address those concerns at the time because we thought they were far fetched. now that it turns out those concerns weren’t far fetched, doesn’t this mean that the concerns of the anti-gay folks were justified? > > I don’t think anyone would have guessed how far gay rights would come in the last 5 years or so, except the right wing paranoids. The obvious question is whether we would have been able to make as much progress as we did if the public knew that once you acknowledge that there is such a thing as gay rights, the length and breadth of those rights are not constrained by popular opinion. Of course they’re constrained by popular opinion. Then and now. Transgender rights aren’t constrained by North Carolina’s popular opinion because civil rights are an American issue and the popular national opinion is the North Carolina laws are unjust. Anti-transpoopers are upset their view is no longer the national one, or the town of Charlotte’s, and they have no problem gerrymandering whatever boundaries of consensus they might to get their way. Their view deserves scorn, their tactics equally so. I WISH they’d try to make this a ‘wedge issue’ on the national stage. Laugh I will. Most heartedly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/189 "2016-05-16T19:43:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Not even themselves. I know it looked like they were speaking, but really that was **astorian** putting on a pair of horn-rimmed glasses and a bowtie so he would look like **Czarcasm** , then quick-changing into a Corrosion of Conformity leather jacket and a liberty spikes wig so he would look like **Miller**. But don’t be fooled! Both times it was **astorian** under the disguise. Bit late at this point, but just for clarity: the above is completely correct. The position attributed to me by the bigoted, lying shitpot who started this thread is not one that I’ve ever actually held. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/190 "2016-05-16T19:51:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Bit late at this point, but just for clarity: the above is completely correct… So you admit to wearing a Corrosion of Conformity leather jacket and liberty spikes wig. Or is it your real hair? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/191 "2016-05-16T20:11:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Ok. It wasn’t clear to me that your concern was about families in which the parent and child disagree about the child’s gender. That’s why I asked for clarification. > > Administrators can and should exercise reasonable discretion about whether a claimed gender identity is sincere. In NYC elementary schools, the rule is to follow whatever gender the child consistently asserts at school, which implies some period of time in which the child consistently identifies before they receive accommodations appropriate to that gender. Presumably, part of that inquiry involves parental input. But I disagree with you that parental input ought to be 100% determinative. I would be hard pressed to assign a percentage, but I think it should be same for other things that parents routinely decide for their children and which the children might strongly disagree: Going to the dentist or doctor. Which school they go to: public or private What types of clothes they are allowed to wear What their bedtime is. Whether they are allowed to play after school before doing their homework. > [@](#): > > If the parent of a trans kid wants to traumatize them by forcing them to adopt the opposite gender, they can pay for Catholic school. Our public schools ought not play any part in that. Just to be clear, is that your personal opinion or is that what you think the law says? I am focusing on what I think the law says (and I’m open to being corrected if I’m interpreting it incorrectly). > [@](#): > > This assumes that in the absence of any legislation that parents should and do have the power to determine the gender that will be used to identify their school-age child. I don’t think that’s a good assumption. Instead, the default rule for all kinds of identity–from religion to sexual orientation–is that people self-identify. Since Title IX is silent on the subject of how to determine a person’s gender, it is the burden of people claiming that parents ought to control the issue to pass legislation to make that happen. > > But why stop there? Shouldn’t parents also be empowered to determine the race, religion, and sexual orientation of their kids? If a ten-year-old wants to identify was Caucasian instead of Latino, as Catholic instead of Hindu, or as straight instead of gay, shouldn’t his parents have to give permission, in your view? If it’s going to play a role in how the schools treats the child, yes. If it’s “raise your hand if you’re X” being asked informally in a classroom, then no. At the upper age ends, I have no problem deferring to the child. At sixteen, I think the child should get more deference. At age 6, the parents more. How things work out in the middle, I’m less clear on. But this is not a new problem wrt age appropriate responsibility. We might have one set of rules for elementary schools, another set for middle schools, and yet another for high school. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/192 "2016-05-16T20:28:33Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > So you admit to wearing a Corrosion of Conformity leather jacket and liberty spikes wig. Or is it your real hair? Dude. I totally ignored the rest of **Miller’s** post after the “completely correct” bit, because I’m so psyched that I’m imagining him correctly. **Czarcasm** , is my mental picture of you similarly on-point? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/193 "2016-05-16T20:31:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > because of the post you were responding to. What other relevance is the fact that LGBT includes transgender have anything to do with the post you were responding to? Ugh. You’re fuckin shit at paraphrasing, DA. Transgender rights have been part of LGBT since the mid-eighties. That does not translate into saying that “transgender rights were next as soon as they got gay marriage taken care of.” What a stupid fuckin way to engage in a conversation. Can you do better and are just not trying, or is that seriously the best you can do? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/194 "2016-05-16T20:40:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dude. I totally ignored the rest of **Miller’s** post after the “completely correct” bit, because I’m so psyched that I’m imagining him correctly. > > **Czarcasm** , is my mental picture of you similarly on-point? The glasses aren’t horned rimmed…but I do wear a bow tie when I dress up. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/195 "2016-05-16T20:52:00Z")
Booyah! ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/196 "2016-05-16T23:00:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Turnabout is fair play”? Is that a legal term of art? Can you cite some court cases than hinged on “turnabout is fair play”? Also, states are sovereign over cities in ways that the feds are not sovereign over states, so that analogy fails. > > The issue, as stated earlier, is when did the term “sex” as used in Title IX become equated not with “gender” but “gender identity”. An adult transgendered person can have his or her sex legally changed. I’m not sure if a minor can do that or not, but I wold suspect not. You got me, I wasn’t actually making a legal argument there. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the NC legislature. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Charlotte is not a sovereign power, they derive all their power from the state of North Carolina. > > Its nothing of the sort. Legal support is not going to stop gay bashing. We are not going to “go bust” on gay rights of any sort. We are not going to turn back the dial on gay marriage or gays in the military. There is very little to be lost in this fight for transgender rights except the goodwill of homophobes. What I meant is that the NC legislature is accelerating the rate of trans rights progress by forcing the issue, not that other rights would be somehow rolled back. By codifying discrimination into law, they have created a nucleation point for court cases. They could have stalled things by simply killing proposed laws making sexual orientation and gender identity protected classes. Instead, they are ensuring that there will be plenty of court cases making their way up the chain. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/197 "2016-05-16T23:17:53Z")
This post makes me sad, in exactly the same way watching Clint Eastwood debate an empty chair - and\* lose\*- made me feel sad. So pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/198 "2016-05-17T02:56:06Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > So you admit to wearing a Corrosion of Conformity leather jacket and liberty spikes wig. Or is it your real hair? The wig is my mod hat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/199 "2016-05-17T03:10:53Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > You got me, I wasn’t actually making a legal argument there. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the NC legislature. Except that’s based on a misunderstanding of how government works in the US. The relationship between the feds and the states is not analogous to that between the states and cities. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/200 "2016-05-17T04:03:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Thanks, **RP**. Just for clarification, I was not talking about the NC law, but about the administrations advice letter concerning schools. Would the law, though, not require that minor child have his or her sex legally changed? It seems like a stretch to say that a six-year-old (or a 12-year-old, for that matter) can tell adults which bathroom he or she is going to use based solely on his say so. My recollection is that changing gender on birth certificates, in states where it is allowed, is done for _non-intersex_ minors only when there are the three criteria used by therapists with respect to gender identity (consistent, persistent, and insistent gender behavior), and there is documentation from a Masters-level therapist, and agreement by the parents/guardians (unless the child is an emancipated minor). Even then IIRC it’s **very rarely** done for children under 16. I’m sure one can Google and find a case of a non-intersex younger child being able to change their gender on a birth certificate, but I would opine that it would be a highly unusual situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667.md?page=11)