# The Right Wing Paranoids Are Right Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667 "2016-05-13T12:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/401 "2016-05-31T16:40:23Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “strip you of your rights and protections as citizen of this country”? > > I think it’s good that we make a decision to allow transgender people in restrooms of their gender, but you can’t just walk in and declare that that is a fundamental civil right. The burden is on you to explain that. So no, don’t get angry, because that only makes things worse. You’re in new territory here, so don’t act like you should be able to just walk in and win the debate and anyone who doesn’t agree, or, hey, just needs some time to let it sink in, is a hateful bigot to be bashed. Not everyone who is uncomfortable with this, or simply disagrees, is motivated by hatred or bigotry, and getting angry isn’t going to help you reach those people, it will only make them shut you out. Different tactics and tones can work for different people. Some can be swayed by passionate and even angry demands (as in “Wow. These folks really, really care about this… maybe I should look into what they’re really saying”), and others can be swayed by gentle education and ‘calm’ debate. I don’t begrudge any particular tactic or tone for social justice and progress, as long as they’re not being dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/402 "2016-05-31T16:42:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “strip you of your rights and protections as citizen of this country”? > > I think it’s good that we make a decision to allow transgender people in restrooms of their gender, but you can’t just walk in and declare that that is a fundamental civil right. The burden is on you to explain that. So no, don’t get angry, because that only makes things worse. You’re in new territory here, so don’t act like you should be able to just walk in and win the debate and anyone who doesn’t agree, or, hey, just needs some time to let it sink in, is a hateful bigot to be bashed. Not everyone who is uncomfortable with this, or simply disagrees, is motivated by hatred or bigotry, and getting angry isn’t going to help you reach those people, it will only make them shut you out. I’m sorry, I don’t have the bandwidth to yell at two morons in this thread. You’ll have to wait. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/403 "2016-05-31T17:16:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m probably a product of the relatively intolerant society I grew up in and if "icky is the word to describe the discomfort some of us feel around transgender issues then so be it. But there was a time (a few decades ago) when I thought gays were icky. We have to recognize that some large minority of people who voted for Obama had very racist views at some point in their lives. Don’t write us off. A lot of us are capable of “evolving” on these sort of issues. If you can’t get us to evolve, your other option is to wait for us to die of old age before you get societal acceptance of transgenderism. > > I also think there might be a difference between the reaction that people have towards transgender boys versus girls. I hope I haven’t given you the impression I’m writing you off. Coincidentally, just this morning I was talking with the mom of a transgender girl. She transitioned in 1st grade last January (2016) after attending from September-December as a boy. No one had a problem with it until March, when suddenly a group of parents found out. The reactions were horrible, leading to a PTA meeting where the police had to be called because the angry transphobic parents were threatening violence against the family and the pro-transgender parents. It turns out not one child, no teacher, no school official had any concerns or problems - until in March, a child mentioned to their parent that a classmate was “a girl now.” Then everything went completely to hell. The transgender child was pulled from school in April, and will be homeschooled for second grade. Why? Because of actual death threats left on the family’s answering machine (I’ve personally heard the playback), including one threat about how someone was going to “cut the dick off your little freak” at the bus stop. While quoting Bible verses in the message as well. This is why we’re scared in this whole bathroom and other debates, and this is why I’m trying to educate people about us. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/404 "2016-05-31T17:18:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “strip you of your rights and protections as citizen of this country”? > > I think it’s good that we make a decision to allow transgender people in restrooms of their gender, but you can’t just walk in and declare that that is a fundamental civil right. Is this you finally admitting your motivation about your many, many bathroom posts? _I_ declare that it is a fundamental civil right of mine to peaceably and safely use public facilities congruent with my gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/405 "2016-05-31T17:26:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you can’t get us to evolve, your other option is to wait for us to die of old age before you get societal acceptance of transgenderism. It’s good that people with skin in the game are not writing you off, but I think it’s important to point out that other people “can’t get [you] to evolve”. The onus is really on you here to ask yourself how is it any business of yours what other people have going on in their underpants? The onus is on you to be a rational person and do the decent thing. I also think it’s worth point out that waiting for you to die off is a winning strategy, long-term. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/406 "2016-05-31T17:33:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Don’t write us off. A lot of us are capable of “evolving” on these sort of issues. After all that has transpired in these threads, after all the stories and cites, after all the requests that have been fulfilled(some, over and over again)…after all this, in what way have _you_ evolved? Give us a reason to continue, a reason to believe that this isn’t a big fucking waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/407 "2016-05-31T19:10:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m sorry, I don’t have the bandwidth to yell at two morons in this thread. You’ll have to wait. Stupid response. When you can manage a real one, let me know. I’ll be here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/408 "2016-05-31T19:10:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Stupid response. > > When you can manage a real one, let me know. I’ll be here. I’d pay real money if you weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/409 "2016-05-31T19:13:38Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Is this you finally admitting your motivation about your many, many bathroom posts? My motivation? To help you strengthen your argument so you aren’t laughed out of court or (perhaps literally) out of bathrooms? Yes, that’s my motivation. > [@](#): > > _I_ declare that it is a fundamental civil right of mine to peaceably and safely use public facilities congruent with my gender identity. Hey, that’s great. Now go convince a court. I’ll support you all the way. But don’t pretend it’s easy. It’s not like it’s directly stated in the Bill of Rights, or has a long tradition of legal support, or even has a strong grounding in current law. You might have to go pass new laws instead of just counting on the courts to bail you out. I’ll help you with that effort if it comes to that. I’m just warning you that it may come to that. And when the people behind you come to demand their rights, too, will you support them? Such as the non-binary who assert the right to use either restroom because they deny having any gender? Or those who are genderfluid and want to alternate? Will you support those who want to look “male” but identify as female, or vice versa, simply defying gender definitions by appearance as well as by cisgender? I will. You probably will too. Will everyone else on the team support them? I hope so, or else they are hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/410 "2016-05-31T19:17:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Different tactics and tones can work for different people. Some can be swayed by passionate and even angry demands (as in “Wow. These folks really, really care about this… maybe I should look into what they’re really saying”), and others can be swayed by gentle education and ‘calm’ debate. I don’t begrudge any particular tactic or tone for social justice and progress, as long as they’re not being dishonest. That’s fine. So you agree with me that SOMETIMES anger backfires. I’ll take that. If it works sometimes, sure, do it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/411 "2016-05-31T19:55:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many threads do you have to participate in, how many personal stories and scientific cites do you have to be shown, before the ignorance is abated? Has it even been lessened and, if so, by how much? You say you are still ignorant of the facts, but surely that can’t be because of lack of trying on the part of those participating in these conversations. I thought this was the only thread on this issue I have participated in. Its possible I participated in another. Has my ignorance abated? If you mean how much closer am I to agreeing with you, then its probably abated a bit. I don’t know that I will ever be totally enlightened by your standards if enlightenment means agreeing with you 100%. In your mind, is there room for reasonably informed people to disagree or is there just one right answer? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/412 "2016-05-31T20:00:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > My motivation? > > To help you strengthen your argument so you aren’t laughed out of court or (perhaps literally) out of bathrooms? > > Yes, that’s my motivation. What? You’re _helping?_ Huh. > [@](#): > > Hey, that’s great. > > Now go convince a court. The Department of Justice is already convinced, as is the EEOC. And the Federal 4th Circuit Court in the Gavin Grimm case last month. I mean if you’re unaware of this, how much are you “helping?” In fact, practically speaking, you aren’t “helping” anyone sitting on a message board playing devil’s advocate and just askin’ questions about gendered bathrooms. > [@](#): > > And when the people behind you come to demand their rights, too, will you support them? Such as the non-binary who assert the right to use either restroom because they deny having any gender? Or those who are genderfluid and want to alternate? Will you support those who want to look “male” but identify as female, or vice versa, simply defying gender definitions by appearance as well as by cisgender? You’re not paying attention. Not only do I, I work directly on behalf of these folks as their advocate. I speak in public fora and advocate legislators and city administrators. What have you been doing to help genderfluid and gender non-binary persons IRL? A short list will do. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/413 "2016-05-31T20:11:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What a limp appeal to authority though. > > If Trump wins and the next DOJ says the opposite, will you go along? . . . Nope… And, yeah, it’s limp, but it was a response to a post saying it was “only my opinion.” No, it’s not “only my opinion.” It’s enforced law. You’re right: a tyrant can take away our rights. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t our rights. Context dude: you lost the thread of the context. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/414 "2016-05-31T20:17:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I thought this was the only thread on this issue I have participated in. Its possible I participated in another. > > Has my ignorance abated? If you mean how much closer am I to agreeing with you, then its probably abated a bit. I don’t know that I will ever be totally enlightened by your standards if enlightenment means agreeing with you 100%. > > In your mind, is there room for reasonably informed people to disagree or is there just one right answer? You are the one that called yourself ignorant on this matter, even after all that has been said and shown to you so far-I’m just wondering what it will take for you to feel less ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/415 "2016-05-31T20:21:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The second. Are you really so dumb that you don’t think, “But, what about bathrooms and locker rooms?” wasn’t part of the homophobe rhetoric against gay rights? > > What am I saying. Of course you’re that dumb. I don’t recall a debate surrounding gay men’s use of female bath rooms. Heck, I don’t recall a debate around gay men’s use of men’s bathrooms. It was mostly about gays in the military and gay marriage, IIRC. > [@](#): > > Yeah, that’s another old bigot dodge. “Don’t get angry! Sure, people treat you like shit, question your worth as a human being, and actively work to strip you of your rights and protections as citizen of this country, but don’t get angry! It just makes your side look bad!” Fuck that cowardice. Nobody ever won their rights by being polite. If you really believe that gay rights were won because you angrily demanded them then you’re a fucking idiot and you do more damage to your own cause than Fred Phelps. People may be denying you rights that you want but I don’t know that anyone is stripping you of rights and protections. Folks like Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. won rights by being polite, or at least not by being whiny asshat jerks. But those guys are just fucking cowards, right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/416 "2016-05-31T20:33:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Been teaching-when the fuck is the _learning_ going to start? After all the conversations, facts and cites given, **Damuri Ajashi** , an active participant who supposedly has been asking questions to gain knowledge, still claims to be among the ignorant on this matter. How much teaching did it take before society “learned” to accept homosexuals in the military or gay marriage? These sort of things are not simply yours for the asking. It took a while for me to “learn” that civil unions were not an good substitute for marriage. It took me a while to learn that esprit de corp was a bullshit argument against gays in the military. All these things take time. Just because you are convinced that you are right does not mean that everyone must see things your way. It is up to your side to convince or otherwise wait for society to catch up with you through the slow osmosis that occurs even more slowly with such a small minority. > [@](#): > > My dear friends who have been verbally assaulted and physically abused to the point of hospitalization have already bourn their share of the burden-it’s not their turn any more. There are already laws against physically abusing anyone, transsexuals already have the protection of those laws. Bathrooms laws are not going to protect them any better than laws against assault generally. Prejudices are really hard to fight. It is a lot easier to teach a slow man something on which he has no opinion than a bright man something that conflicts with things he already believes. But THAT is the burden you bear. Unfortunately the burden of ignorance is frequently not born by the ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/417 "2016-05-31T21:04:02Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I hope I haven’t given you the impression I’m writing you off. No not at all. I think you’ve explained things very well and it probably gave you an ulcer trying explain things that are very obvious to you without calling me a fucking fuckhead stupid shit piss fuck cunt titty cocksucker motherfucker moron. I just know how frustrating it can be to try and relieve people of their ignorance and its really tempting to just give up on them and turn to your choir so you can start preaching at each other. But the iron is really hot on transgender issues right now and I didn’t want my questions or ignorance to discourage you despite the fact that I am not yet 100% in agreement with you. Its going to take a lot longer than people think. > [@](#): > > Coincidentally, just this morning I was talking with the mom of a transgender girl. She transitioned in 1st grade last January (2016) after attending from September-December as a boy. No one had a problem with it until March, when suddenly a group of parents found out. The reactions were horrible, leading to a PTA meeting where the police had to be called because the angry transphobic parents were threatening violence against the family and the pro-transgender parents. It turns out not one child, no teacher, no school official had any concerns or problems - until in March, a child mentioned to their parent that a classmate was “a girl now.” Then everything went completely to hell. > > The transgender child was pulled from school in April, and will be homeschooled for second grade. Why? Because of actual death threats left on the family’s answering machine (I’ve personally heard the playback), including one threat about how someone was going to “cut the dick off your little freak” at the bus stop. While quoting Bible verses in the message as well. That’s ugly. People may not be sympathetic to the plight of transgendered folks, but there are more decent people than there are assholes and even most assholes will be shocked by physical threats against small children no matter how icky they are. Without sounding crass, publicizing these sort of incidents will evoke more sympathy for your cause (taking into account the child’s welfare). It will prod the conscience of every decent parent and more than a few of them will say to themselves “there, but for the grace of god, go I” And while that sort of sympathy might not be exactly what you are looking for, that pity can become empathy. > [@](#): > > This is why we’re scared in this whole bathroom and other debates, and this is why I’m trying to educate people about us. Unlike years past, the cops are in your corner now. These sort of threats don’t get ignored, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/418 "2016-05-31T21:22:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > After all that has transpired in these threads, after all the stories and cites, after all the requests that have been fulfilled(some, over and over again)…after all this, in what way have _you_ evolved? > Give us a reason to continue, a reason to believe that this isn’t a big fucking waste of time. Well, I guess I started off this thread with an open attitude about transgender adults and letting them be who they want to be but with a lot of doubts about transgender issues with children. I no longer have concerns about high school kids or any of the concerns people raise about athletics. I still have issues with transgenderism in young children. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/419 "2016-05-31T21:25:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are the one that called yourself ignorant on this matter, even after all that has been said and shown to you so far-I’m just wondering what it will take for you to feel less ignorant. I already feel “less” ignorant. But I am still ignorant about a lot of it. I know a lot more about gay issues and they don’t translate perfectly to transgender issues. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/420 "2016-05-31T21:55:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Unlike years past, the cops are in your corner now. These sort of threats don’t get ignored, do they? It depends entirely upon the city, and the cops who show up. KCMO is much, much better than many cities (KCMO has a disproportionately large LGBT and especially T population, and comprehensive anti-discrimination ordinances), but in this case the threats were made with no practical way to trace them. Even if it’s just some troll playing around, threats like that make one look over their shoulder a lot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667.md?page=22)