# The Right Wing Paranoids Are Right Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667 "2016-05-13T12:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/541 "2016-06-08T01:35:09Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I get the feeling I’m talking too much. Perhaps I need to just let this topic go for now. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m finding your posts the most valuable ones in the thread. Please write as much as you want to. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/542 "2016-06-08T03:33:07Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m finding your posts the most valuable ones in the thread. Please write as much as you want to. Ditto. I’m not posting (until now) because I have nothing to contribute. But I have much to learn, and **Una** is educating me. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/543 "2016-06-08T05:21:56Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m finding your posts the most valuable ones in the thread. Please write as much as you want to. Amen. Someone really ought to be cataloging **Una** ’s posts, they are _golden_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/544 "2016-06-08T16:33:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Why do you think there is some concern about this? Who is expressing such concern? > > ISTM that such “concern” is totally backwards: on the contrary, there would be an economic incentive for unscrupulous professionals to identify transgender kids as **not** transgender. Endless opportunities for expensive therapy ostensibly to “reconcile” the kid to their “true” birth gender identification, which as you note most parents would probably see as a preferable solution over gender transitioning. That’s a good point if its true. If there more money to be made trying to gender conform kids than to assist them in transition that would blow that argument right out of the water. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can imagine that there are some unscrupulous mental health professionals out there – not a lot, but some… but misdiagnosing children as transgender _on purpose_? That goes beyond just unscrupulous… that’s to the level of condemning children to years (or more) of misery, and greatly increasing risk of substance abuse and even suicide. That’s monstrous to the level of serial child molestation, and I have a hard time believing that there are any significant number of mental health professionals who are literally willing to _doom a child to years of misery_ just to make a bit of money. Yes, there are unscrupulous people out there. I don’t know how many of them there are in this teeny tiny little corner of the world but there was a case in China of men who poisoned baby formula because they thought that they could make a little more money by replacing milk with plastic derivatives. This sort of avarice is not unique to the Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/545 "2016-06-08T16:59:07Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Puberty blockers allow mental health professionals and parents to err on the side of caution. I’m uncertain why this is shocking. Because it sounds like something close to hormone treatments until you find out what they are. It sounds like you are interrupting the natural course of biology for the sake of making the road to transgenderism more available until you consider the benefit versus the harm (and take into consideration the very steep hurdles we overcome before we ever get to this point, I am assuming the hurdles to get here are very steep considering how much concern there is over false positives). > [@](#): > > Why…is there any more or less concern than for any other medical or mental health professional who might diagnose someone? Why here in this instance is this suddenly a concern? I’m now wondering about how far you’re wanting to look for perceived fatal flaws in this process. Because we are talking about interfering with normal biological functions. How long have we been using puberty blockers? 10 years? 20 years? Its pretty new isn’t it? > [@](#): > > The standard of care is for a degreed and licensed mental health professional to advise hormone therapy is appropriate, and then a physician will take this advice and examine and run labs on the transgender person to see if there is a medical risk. If no medical risk is found, and the physician agrees with the mental health professional, then they write the prescription for hormones. There are some states (Missouri for example) which allow “informed consent” only for people over 18, where a single physician can both assess the mental status and write the prescription. I’m really only concerned with minors. At 18, I think we let the 18 year old decide. How long can we block puberty? Can we block it until the kid is an adult or would that stunt their long term development? > [@](#): > > It’s (probably) not that they want to, it’s that they are not going through proper channels and protocols due to ignorance or idiocy. This is why licensed mental health professionals and physicians should be involved. Or who knows the reason. I know it has happened. Very rare, but not nonexistent. I also have seen cisgender pre-pubescent girls with breast implants, nose jobs, tummy tucks, etc.; again, I don’t know the driving reason. > > And a transgender child who is denied hormone therapy, due to their parents refusing to consent to treatment, will not be prevented from taking hormones. Kids can get pot, coke, pills, booze, LSD…you can be damn sure they can get hormones. They can get them on the black market in the US, where they often are in the form of megadoses of contraceptive pills, or sports-related performance-enhancing androgens. Or they can order them online, even from the Dark Web. Since hormones are not part of the “war on drugs,” the FDA and DEA do not aggressively police trafficking. In some countries I’ve visited, hormones can be purchased over the counter with no physician’s note whatsoever. I’ve seen them in Mexico for sale, as well as Thailand. So sometimes a “mule” will go down to Mexico, buy about 5,000 doses of estradiol and testosterone, and bring them back for sale. > > Without proper dosing and monitoring the kids risk liver damage, DVT, mental staus changes, and other negative impacts. That’s assuming that they’re even hormones at all, and not cut with something else or mislabeled. And then sometimes the kids will take herbal supplements from GNC which are advertised as containing phytoestrogens or other estrogen-like compounds. I met a lady who as a teen OD’d on black cohosh, to the point where she suffered liver damage. And a teen who was arrested shoplifting something like 50 boxes of Estroven. Then there’s the stupid shit, such as the rumors on message boards. There’s a persistent rumor that Luna bars somehow contain “oodles of female hormones,” and you can read people posting things like “I ate 20 Luna bars a day, and my boobs started growing! I can feel the tingle!” White chocolate macadamia nut is supposed to be the “magic” one. Yeah, at 200 calories per bar, if you eat 20 bars a day something’s going to start growing… :smack: > > I took “grey market” hormones for 6 months before my suicide attempt. They were trivial to get. It is possible that the megadoses of progesterone I was taking (which was highly inadvisable, but unavoidable in the versions I was taking; all I should have been getting was the estradiol) contributed to my depression. When I was put on the legal hormones, after 5 days for the levels to build my depression was lifted permanently, and this is often the case with others like me. > > The fact that those denied hormones may obtain them illegally should not be taken as proof that hormones should always be given on-demand…and yet, there is an inescapable reality that transgender persons will, in desperation to help our gender dysphoria, a feeling which literally tears you apart at the seams, will seek out illegal hormones in some cases. FWIW. > > I get the feeling I’m talking too much. Perhaps I need to just let this topic go for now. I appreciate your perspective and information. I agree that its hard to keep hormones away from kids, steroids were ridiculously easy to get when i was a kid (I think its harder now because of all the negative publicity surrounding steroids). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/546 "2016-06-08T17:06:45Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m finding your posts the most valuable ones in the thread. Please write as much as you want to. Yes, there is a lot of ignorance being fought here. I feel like I am being enlightened. At a crass level I am now the most well informed person on the subject in almost every social situation I am exposed to (I’m the one eyed man in the land of the blind). I can defend the transgender position on almost every issue and a quick google search will back me up. Not a single one of the parents I know with would risk their child killing themselves to avoid having a transgender child. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/547 "2016-06-08T17:10:17Z")
I don’t have the time for serious research right now. But a Canadian therapy center–in which transgender minors were counseled to\* not\* be transgender–[closed last December.](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/12/16/3732840/ex-trans-reparative-therapy-clinic-closing/) So, somebody _was_ making money by pretending that transgender was not a real orientation. No more–but who else might still be in the business? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/548 "2016-06-08T19:35:14Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Um…wow, you really are reading a whole lot of…something…into that post. Good luck. Good people acknowledge when their humor has hurt others and apologize, instead of adding further insults. I’ve apologized to you in the past, so why are you so amused by hurting me? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/549 "2016-06-08T19:37:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Heh. Someone on Twitter recently posted a list that read in its entirety:She said she was enjoying the sound of heads exploding in response. And this is why it’s a sexist attack: It states that “all men” do something, and then points and laughs at the men who state they don’t do that thing. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/550 "2016-06-08T19:56:12Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Good people acknowledge when their humor has hurt others and apologize, instead of adding further insults. I’ve apologized to you in the past, so why are you so amused by hurting me? Did you note that not one other person in here read it the same way as you? And when are you going to reply to everyone else who read it a similar way to me? Why aren’t you demanding an apology from them? And there is absolutely NOTHING insulting about the phrase you quoted, “Um…wow, you really are reading a whole lot of…something…into that post. Good luck.” Cite to these “further insults?” Cite or retract. More likely you’re trying to play the “fake wounded innocence” game. Because I’ve \*never \*had anyone try that with me on here, having just wandered onto this message board yesterday… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/551 "2016-06-08T20:06:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because we are talking about interfering with normal biological functions. How long have we been using puberty blockers? 10 years? 20 years? Its pretty new isn’t it? Kids have been prescribed HGH and undergo many medical treatments which “interfere” with normal biological functions. One can say that prescribing HGH for stunted growth is correcting a serious physical disorder, and I’d argue so is transition. It comes down to whether you believe transition is medically necessary for the overall well-being and quality of life of the patient - or if you believe it is not. I believe puberty blockers have been around for about 50+ years, but used for transition assistance since the 1990’s. > [@](#): > > I’m really only concerned with minors. At 18, I think we let the 18 year old decide. How long can we block puberty? Can we block it until the kid is an adult or would that stunt their long term development? Kids bodies are pretty flexible. There is very little evidence that delaying puberty for 1-3 years causes permanent damage or stunting. To put things into perspective, sometimes kids who have gone through full male puberty and then start hormones at 18 can still develop incredibly well into a female body, with the possible exception of hip width. There is very little to no information on kids with puberty blocked for extended periods of time, because no one (barring crazy exceptions) does that. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/552 "2016-06-08T20:17:45Z")
All men are fucking idiots. That goes for you too, **Derleth**. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/553 "2016-06-08T20:19:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > All men are fucking idiots. I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t a fucking idiot at times. I consider myself quite accomplished in that field. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/554 "2016-06-08T23:01:07Z")
For what very little it’s worth, I also find that #notallmen cartoon intensely irritating, or, in modern parlance, “problematic”. It runs into trouble in the very first panel. A signal alerts #notallman to an instance of “reverse sexism”. Now, firstly, there’s no such thing as “reverse sexism”. There’s just sexism. Saying women are crazy bitches? Sexism. Saying men are insensitive pigs? Also sexism. There’s no “reverse” about it. Things either _are_ sexist or they _aren’t_. Secondly, the “man signal” implies that sexism against men is taken so seriously that every instance is flagged, and by a modified bat-signal no less! In the real world, sexism against men is so effectively ignored that one often has to battle to get women to acknowledge that it exists (if you’re one of those women who does acknowledge it…_shut up_ we’re not talking about you so stop derailing (OMG I can’t even #femininitysofragile)) For example, the fact that men comprise 40% of domestic abuse victims but get only 2% of sheltered housing is sexist. When women get lighter prison sentences than men who commit _the exact same crimes_ that’s institutional sexism in action. The fact that young girls raped by older men are given sympathy and support, but young boys raped by older women are told to count themselves lucky while their abusers get slapped on the wrist is sexism. There’s no bat signal for these men. There’s just women ignoring them or telling them to “man up” (again, if you’re a woman who objects to this generalisation…_shut up_! Stop making this all about you!) The second panel is relatively unobjectionable, other than the beer ad on the phone booth. Because men love beer. Along with tits and football, beer is literally the only thing men understand. If you can’t see why this is problematic, imagine if the character was a woman and the ad was for tampons, Barbie dolls, or pretty pink princess outfits. Panel 4 says men are “defended”, “protected”, and “voiceful”, which is true…unless they’re domestically abused, sexually abused, mentally ill (in which case they’re far less likely to receive proper care than women), homeless[sup]1[/sup], or fall into any one of a dozen other unfortunate categories. Panels 5 and 6, however, are where it _really_ goes off the rails. In panel 5, a woman is about to make a generalisation which, in all likelihood, _is_ about all men. You can tell by the construction _“I’m just sick of how men…”_. I defy anyone to finish that sentence in a plausible way which _doesn’t_ generalise about all men, so the idea that this woman _could_ have just been talking about men who catcall, or men who commit sexual harassment is implausible on its face. This is supported by the fact that the cartoonist didn’t care to let the woman finish her thought, leaving it open to be interpreted as _any_ generalisation. The second problem is that this is all supposedly taking place in the real world. I’d wager everything I own that never, in the history of human interaction, have two women been bitching about men in a bar only to be interrupted by some random dude saying _"Actually, I’ll think you’ll find that’s a little bit sexist_. Never happened. The cartoon is clearly meant as an analogue to online discussion. But here’s the thing about online conversations…_they’re online!_ If you’re going to make bigoted generalisations online, _someone_ is going to call you on it. If you don’t want that to happen, you should either moderate your comments, steer clear of controversial subjects, or (crazy thought) stop being fucking bigots! Jesus Christ, people, this is internet 101. Generalise or don’t, but if you do, don’t be surprised if you get a backlash. And don’t be surprised when you suddenly realise your moral authority to complain about sexist generalisations about _your_ gender/race/religion has evaporated. [sub][sup]1[/sup]Interesting sidebar: I saw the funniest thing on Twitter the other day. It was an advert which said “Of every four homeless people, one is a WOMAN!” (the dun-dun-_dunnn_ was implied) Personally, I think the bigger problem is that out of every four homeless people, four are homeless, but there you go.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/555 "2016-06-08T23:15:46Z")
And [Poe’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) strikes again. Someone help me out? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/556 "2016-06-08T23:19:19Z")
> [@andros](#): > > All men are fucking idiots. . . . Hey! I’m a virgin. Never fucked anybody or anything. I’m just a plain ordinary vanilla idiot. Geez. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/557 "2016-06-08T23:21:13Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > You can tell by the construction _“I’m just sick of how men…”_. I defy anyone to finish that sentence in a plausible way which _doesn’t_ generalise about all men, so the idea that this woman _could_ have just been talking about men who catcall, or men who commit sexual harassment is implausible on its face. “I’m just sick of how men are often portrayed as idiots in commercials.” “I’m just sick of how men who are victims of domestic violence often get no support. Or worse, sometimes they are ridiculed.” “I’m just sick of how men are viewed as unsafe around kids.” ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/558 "2016-06-08T23:23:14Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > And [Poe’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) strikes again. Someone help me out? Holy shit! Your content-free drive-by has shown me the error of my ways. I repent of my sins and shall devote myself henceforth to the good fight, battling against bigotry in all its forms. Unless it’s about men, in which case, fuck 'em, amirite? People like you are the reason Portlandia exists. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/559 "2016-06-08T23:24:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > “I’m just sick of how men are often portrayed as idiots in commercials.” > > “I’m just sick of how men who are victims of domestic violence often get no support. Or worse, sometimes they are ridiculed.” > > “I’m just sick of how men are viewed as unsafe around kids.” All very laudable sentiments, but do you _really_ think they’re plausible within the context of the cartoon? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667/560 "2016-06-08T23:33:49Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Holy shit! Your content-free drive-by has shown me the error of my ways. Dude, chill. You get tweaked by a comic, you get tweaked by a content-free post. Maybe you’re taking this men’s rights SJW thing too far. Take some deep breaths and relax. We also have legal pot over here in Portlandia now, if that will help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-right-wing-paranoids-are-right-again/754667.md?page=29)