# The Rise of “Karens”?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [July 20, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320 "2023-07-20T18:54:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Digger11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger11)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/61 "2023-07-21T03:18:58Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#):
>
> I am of the opinion that sexism has a LOT to do with this meme. Look at the screenshots for Karen videos on YouTube. They are usually described as “Karens get INSTANT KARMA!!!” and show a screeching woman under threat of a gun or a baseball bat or a fist. It’s never a male in the picture being threatened, even if the video features Kevins or Kens or whatever.
>
> Tell me if this isn’t backlash for women who DARE to stand up for themselves. Even if women are in the right for making a complaint, the stereotype continues.
No.
It’s backlash against people who complain about stupid things, often showing themselves to be racist in the process. For example, confronting somebody who “just happens” to be black, insisting that the person prove to the complainer that the person lives in the condo building, apartment complex, etc.
Name ONE example of something like that happening to a white person.
Another example of the type is the person who for some inexplicable reason is mortally offended that a child or teenager is bicycling/stateboarding/whatever on a sidewalk or other public property where they have a perfect right to be.
NOBODY calls “Karens” those people who actually have legitimate complaints about something.
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### Author:  [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/62 "2023-07-21T03:31:37Z")
_Police Cops_ and Homer changes his name to Max Power.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/63 "2023-07-21T03:50:47Z")
And Marge’s to Hootie McBoob.
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### Author:  [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/64 "2023-07-21T04:24:38Z")
For the record, I’ve seen more ‘Karen’ behavior from men than from women, but suspect that overall it’s seen as “men standing up for themselves” and for women it’s being a Karen or “bitchy”.
(ETA: Here I’m not applying term as a gendered insult, but trying to report how it is coded, both implicitly and explicitly in many cases)
Not to say that both sexes aren’t full capable of being jerks, but the social conditioning is still lingering as seeing it as a positive in males (or at least excusable) and distasteful for women.
The most recent example was about 2 weeks ago, and an older (I’d guess 60-70) anglo gentleman (irony intended) was making a fuss at the meat counter of my local Krogers. He wanted the person manning the counter to pick out just drumettes from the mixed wing sections for him, 2 pounds worth. The butcher said they couldn’t do that while other customers were waiting (about 3 of us), and the jerk in question spent the next 5 minutes complaining, along with all the other stereotypical tropes mentioned upthread: they always did this for me before, I was here first, the customer is always right, get the manager, I’m going to call the cops on this place for discrimination.
I don’t know how it ended, because after 5 minutes I decided I didn’t need anything badly enough from the meat counter to put up with it.
Anyway, the fact that we have a solid term for the behavior for a woman, but don’t have a similarly firm one for men seems to indicate that there is still a lingering sexist double standard about the behavior, and it says more about the people posting to the meme than anything else.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/65 "2023-07-21T05:02:20Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#):
>
> It had a reference to one LaKeisha McBurgerflipper. I couldn’t believe he would post something this racist, or this classist, and told him so.
[They are a proud people](https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/who-were-the-black-irish-full-history-explained/)…
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### Author:  [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/66 "2023-07-21T05:08:32Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> But Karen has morphed into a woman who belittles service workers, makes petty complaints, asks for special treatment, and is anti-vaccination.
Is there any connection to the character Karen in _Will and Grace_?
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### Author:  [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/67 "2023-07-21T11:43:55Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#):
>
> Is there any connection to the character Karen in _Will and Grace_?
not being american, nor living there (iow: no direct experience) … i thought that was the trigger for this name …
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/68 "2023-07-21T11:53:52Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#):
>
> Is there any connection to the character Karen in _Will and Grace_?
Seems improbable. I first recall hearing the term somewhere around 2015-2016, about 20 years after that show was relevant.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/69 "2023-07-21T11:54:02Z")
_If_ this is something that has recently changed, I wonder if the COVID lock down has something to do with it.
I does seem like drivers are sort saying to hell with rules and common courtesy more than they used to.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/70 "2023-07-21T15:10:03Z")
Didn’t it just come from a meme?
Someone was ranting about a woman with the wrong ideas and made up a name, Karen, on the spot. I can’t find the meme, but I’ve seen it.
I don’t like the term, I think it has a chilling effect on women who would otherwise speak up. There’s nothing objectively wrong with politely complaining about poor service, but it’s inevitable that women who do so get lumped in with more difficult customers. Being called a Karen when you’re just being a dissatisfied customer is really shitty, and it’s definitely a gendered, sexist term.
By the OPs definition though, my Mom was the Queen of Karens. She once chewed out a BBQ restaurant manager for having a bottle of hot sauce with the devil on it. Later she bitched out a manager of a fitness center because one of the songs that came on the radio was Eric Clapton’s _Cocaine._
I recently found some old medical files from when I was a teenager. Written into the medical records were the words: “Mother is difficult.”
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### Author:  [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/71 "2023-07-21T15:16:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> But Karen has morphed into a woman who belittles service workers, makes petty complaints, asks for special treatment, and is anti-vaccination.
No, by definition she is pretty much universally agreed to be AWFL (Affluent White Female Liberal). “I need to speak to a manager” etc.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/72 "2023-07-21T15:22:15Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#):
>
> I really find it stupid that some would ruin someone’s name by using it to describe a negative type of person
There is a difference between someone named “Karen” and someone who is being a “Karen”.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/73 "2023-07-21T15:39:38Z")
I don’t think “liberal” is a necessary part of the definition.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/74 "2023-07-21T16:05:32Z")
Agreed. It’s just “entitled female” and in fact the wide spread of the term was favored by being applicable to ANY scenario — my first exposure was in the sense of the lady who’s always demanding to talk to the manager because some service industry underling will not accommodate her beyond what’s reasonable. Race- and ideology-agnostic insofar as the target of the abuse, it was generally just whoever she believes is beneath her, whatever their gender, race or politics.
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/75 "2023-07-21T17:36:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#):
>
> > [@themapleleaf](#):
> >
> > I really find it stupid that some would ruin someone’s name by using it to describe a negative type of person
>
> There is a difference between someone named “Karen” and someone who is being a “Karen”.
My first thoughts along these lines always run to the Kayin (and other) Karen, who are not, and should not be, ashamed to _be_ Karen… are they supposed to need better publicists now?
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### Author:  [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/76 "2023-07-21T17:39:00Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I don’t think “liberal” is a necessary part of the definition.
I agree. I’ve seen right-wing karens, too. In my experience, Right-Wing Karens seem to complain about “dirty” things more often than not. Like stuff that they think is smutty being in public view.
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### Author:  [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/77 "2023-07-21T17:56:25Z")
Do Australian women named Shiela or Matilda bristle at the (admittedly less perjorative) genericization? My own name has certain associations too and I doubt anyone escaped some childhood taunting.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/78 "2023-07-21T18:03:51Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#):
>
> In my experience, Right-Wing Karens seem to complain about “dirty” things more often than not. Like stuff that they think is smutty being in public view.
Plenty of SovCit-ish Karens too. Who seem usually to be high on the Right-ish flavor of Libertarian whackjobbery, rather than the Left-ish flavor of Libertarian whackjobbery.
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### Author:  [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/79 "2023-07-21T18:22:24Z")
Karens on film: I think Sandra Bullock nailed that personality in the film [Crash](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375679/). Kinda hard to watch, as were other parts.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/80 "2023-07-21T18:37:44Z")
I was at the trailhead of a local trail with one of our dogs the other day when a “Karen” approached me. She invaded my personal space, getting right up in my face, telling me that I was required to pick up my dogs poop.
Now I knew this, as I’m a lifetime member of the conservancy that oversees the trail. I had been having a shit day and was there to walk, relax, and unwind.
I pulled a poop bag from my pocket and yelled (likely throwing spittle), “YES, KAREN I KNOW AND DO PICK UP MY DOG’S SHIT, I’M A MEMBER OF THE CONSERVANCY”. I hope someone was videotaping us, people were definitely watching/listening. I then told her to mind her own fucking business and called her a toad faced fool. I’m not even sure what “toad faced” means, it was a spontaneous utterance.
I felt much better as we walked away.
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