# The Rise of “Karens”?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [July 20, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320 "2023-07-20T18:54:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2023, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/101 "2023-07-21T23:40:55Z")
> [@Skypist](#):
>
> I think it is sexist or has devolved into sexism from its original use to describe a racist white woman and is now used to criticize any woman who is seen as bossy or demanding. Especially since “Karen” has no male counterpart name that has stuck around with any consistency. That really tells you it is meant to be aimed at mostly women, IMO. I also haven’t heard of too many demanding or even racist men being referred to as “a Karen.”
Right.
Did not we ban the casual use here of “Bitch” to insult women? How is that different than Karen, which is a sexist insult aimed at women?
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### Author:  [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/102 "2023-07-22T00:07:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> My wife can tell you all that the biggest assholes …
I’m sure she could. But the definition of “Karen” was derived from a particular species if you will, of affluent white liberal female. This is certainly not my observation, but it is what it is.
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### Author:  [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/103 "2023-07-22T00:09:12Z")
> [@Digger11](#):
>
> No.
>
> It’s backlash against people who complain about stupid things, often showing themselves to be racist in the process.
This is correct.
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/104 "2023-07-22T00:09:49Z")
> [@Frosted\_Glass](#):
>
> To people who look like me they aren’t just difficult people, they’re potentially dangerous.
I’m sorry that you experienced this, but thank you for your post. Your perspective is invaluable.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/105 "2023-07-22T00:18:28Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#):
>
> But the definition of “Karen” was derived from a particular species if you will, of affluent white liberal female.
What country are you from? I do understand that “liberal” is used in a large part of the world to mean right-wing (as in neoliberal von Mises types), but we are talking about Americans here. “Karen” does not fit with the US “liberal” classification.
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### Author:  [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/106 "2023-07-22T00:22:25Z")
I think a lot of it is the ubiquity of cellphone cameras and Youtube. There seems to usually be a large race/class disparity in many of these encounters, and not so long ago the attacked person would have to accept the abuse because the “he said/she said” equation was not in their favor. Now you whip out your phone and start recording. There’s a lot of schadenfreude in posting your video and getting affirmation. Most of the “Karen/Kevins” are so lost in adrenaline that being recorded provokes them into even more extreme behavior. It can certainly be argued that the labels may be sexist, but the displayed behavior is very, very hard to defend, and 20 years ago might have led to unjust arrests.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/107 "2023-07-22T00:22:44Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> “Karen” does not fit with the US “liberal” classification.
Agreed, generally the “Karens” who gave rise to the meme have been largely conservative, especially given the racist nature of the encounters.
If you changed “liberal” to “conservative”, I don’t think that would be fully accurate, but I think it would be _more_ accurate.
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### Author:  [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/108 "2023-07-22T00:34:00Z")
I guess there might be regional differences? In the midwest, “Karen” has always and ever been understood to be an AWFL, it’s a meme for a reason I suppose. That’s how it started anyway.
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### Author:  [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/109 "2023-07-22T00:37:47Z")
I suspect Liberal was included because they just liked the sound of the acronym AWFL. But it isn’t a great fit. But there must be a better word starting with L, perhaps involving foreheads?
I’m not sure I agree with the reductionist “you are either woke or not” which might be used in theory to justify conflating important issues with something far less so. (Our college newspaper insisted on using the spelling womyn, for example). There are many important issues, and some things are obviously offensive but others far more subjective, and might offend far fewer people. I think many people have implicit biases, I think there is value in trying to do the right thing. Using the term Karen is, to my view, a fairly innocuous thing if there is a male version and it is understood not to refer to actual people with that name but a specific behaviour. Reasonable people might disagree.
Patton Oswald has a comedy bit about how he tried to be woke and sensitive, but perceived mistakes are inevitable. He talks about how RuPaul was criticized for not using the most up-to-date terminology. He jokes about how he will be booed in the future by saying something he thinks is innocent and doesn’t realize is now offensive to some of his future audience. “I don’t think people should have sex with their clones. BOOOO!!!” He sees this as inevitable.
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### Author:  [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/110 "2023-07-22T00:46:47Z")
I don’t believe so, women (in general) largely lean towards liberal politics. So it isn’t a stretch. In popular usage it just means the busy-body extreme type who throws her weight around in an excessively annoying manner?
Wiki entry claims ‘Karen is **a pejorative term used as slang for a middle-class white woman who is perceived as entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal** ’. I’ve only ever heard it used in this context, admittedly not a lot, but there isn’t any confusion on what is meant either.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/111 "2023-07-22T00:51:07Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#):
>
> Wiki entry claims ‘Karen is **a pejorative term used as slang for a middle-class white woman who is perceived as entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal** ’. I’ve only ever heard it used in this context, admittedly not a lot, but there isn’t any confusion on what is meant either.
Yes, that’s why I said the “conservative” label isn’t totally accurate either. I think political affiliation is irrelevant to the meme.
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### Author:  [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/112 "2023-07-22T01:27:14Z")
> [@Atamasama](#):
>
> Yes, that’s why I said the “conservative” label isn’t totally accurate either. I think political affiliation is irrelevant to the meme.
I agree completely. Many Karens don’t even claim political affiliation but see themselves as middle of the road or “normal” inasmuch as they surround themselves with other Karens.
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### Author:  [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/113 "2023-07-22T01:35:32Z")
See also: [https://notalwaysright.com/](https://notalwaysright.com/)
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/114 "2023-07-22T01:41:55Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#):
>
> Using the term Karen is, to my view, a fairly innocuous thing if there is a male version
I believe the most appropriate male version of “Karen” is “Karen”.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/115 "2023-07-22T02:03:03Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> I believe the most appropriate male version of “Karen” is “Karen”.
It works for me!
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### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/116 "2023-07-22T02:09:51Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#):
>
> In the midwest, “Karen” has always and ever been understood to be an AWFL
I’m in the Midwest and have never seen/heard an assumption that a Karen, by definition, is liberal. Especially since the newsmaking stereotypical behaviors have involved calling the police on Black people for basically existing.
That doesn’t mean they have to be conservative – yelling at store clerks isn’t necessarily political behavior – but the idea that they’re default liberal is foreign to me.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/117 "2023-07-22T02:31:28Z")
I also have no idea that "Karen"s have any racist component whatsoever. It’s 100% bitching out the service staff and demanding special treatment. Not because the “Karen” is better than the staff. But because the “Karen” is sooo much better than all the other customers who are otherwise his/her peer.
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### Author:  [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/118 "2023-07-22T02:44:27Z")
I’m from Michigan, never heard liberal attached to the Karen meme.
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### Author:  [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/119 "2023-07-22T04:02:02Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> I also have no idea that "Karen"s have any racist component whatsoever. It’s 100% bitching out the service staff and demanding special treatment. Not because the “Karen” is better than the staff. But because the “Karen” is sooo much better than all the other customers who are otherwise his/her peer.
I’ve seen Karen behavior from a wide range of ages and skin colors. Men wishing to bully service staff tend more toward thuggishness.
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### Author:  [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2023, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/120 "2023-07-22T08:24:29Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#):
>
> Maybe the gentleman I mocked upthread just lost his wife, and wanted to make his wife’s favorite dish. Or maybe he was always an ass, **it’s hard to know when we see only snippets of others life**.
My bolding. This is important. Shortly after moving into my current neighborhood, I very nearly came to blows with a couple of men who I later realized have mental disorders. I dealt with them separately in two unrelated incidents in which each had gotten in my face (inches away) to yell at me unmasked at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, and I’m now glad I didn’t resort to violence or even confrontation. Since then, one of them has been going out of his way to be friendly to me. Poor guy has the mind of a 10-year-old.
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