# The Rise of “Karens”?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [July 20, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320 "2023-07-20T18:54:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)
#### Post date: [July 23, 2023, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/121 "2023-07-23T07:07:52Z")
> [@Seanette](#):
>
> Men wishing to bully service staff tend more toward thuggishness.
Don’t forget the sexual harassment!
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### Author:  [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/122 "2023-07-25T20:19:16Z")
Judging by his social media posts, a male Karen should be a “Donald”.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/123 "2023-07-26T01:56:08Z")
We have a winner!!!
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### Author:  [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/124 "2023-07-26T05:42:41Z")
I think that the racism element started getting dropped when white people started adopting the term, but originally it referred to white women complaining about black people who were just living their lives. There was the woman who called the cops because a black family was having a cookout in a park, the one who called them to report a black child selling water, and of course the one who called 911 because a black man dared to ask her to put her dog on a leash in a birdwatching area. A lot of these are people who seem to really miss being elementary school hall monitors, but because they know police are likely to take the side of a middle-class white woman over a black person, they’re dangerous.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/125 "2023-07-26T12:12:19Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#):
>
> There was the woman who called the cops because a black family was having a cookout in a park, the one who called them to report a black child selling water, and of course the one who called 911 because a black man dared to ask her to put her dog on a leash in a birdwatching area
Though when these specific cases came up I was already encountering the term in race-indifferent contexts. It may have been a relatively easy linguistic lift because a majority of IRL Karen encounters would be of the “I want to speak to your manager” rather than “call police” type, so a broader segment can identify.
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### Author:  [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/126 "2023-07-26T12:49:34Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#):
>
> 911 because a black man dared to ask her to put her dog on a leash in a birdwatching area.
And now he’s got a show on TV!
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### Author:  [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/127 "2023-07-26T13:21:57Z")
A thought just occured to me, I wonder how many MAGA’s have a son name Hunter and how they feel about it now?
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### Author:  [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/128 "2023-07-26T13:45:04Z")
And how often they had young Hunter sit on their laptop.
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### Author:  [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/129 "2023-07-26T14:10:09Z")
A good thought! I bet it’s a lot. 😄
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### Author:  [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/131 "2023-07-27T21:08:38Z")
> [@Digger11](#):
>
> the person who for some inexplicable reason is mortally offended that a child or teenager is bicycling/stateboarding/whatever on a sidewalk or other public property where they have a perfect right to be.
Nobody should be riding their bicycle on the sidewalk. It makes it more dangerous to use the sidewalk for what it’s meant for–_walking_.
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### Author:  [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/132 "2023-07-27T21:16:14Z")
> [@El\_DeLuxo](#):
>
> Nobody should be riding their bicycle on the sidewalk. It makes it more dangerous to use the sidewalk for what it’s meant for–_walking_.
As a frequent pedestrian, I agree with this. I get VERY tired of being forced off the sidewalk, INTO TRAFFIC, by bicyclists who fail to grasp that they’re considered vehicle operators and that they should not be on the sideWALK.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/133 "2023-07-27T21:26:50Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#):
>
> and of course the one who called 911 because a black man dared to ask her to put her dog on a leash in a birdwatching area.
This one always bothers me because while I agree the lady was racist and leaning on racism to make her case to police, the way this unfolded would have unnerved any woman.
When she told him she wasn’t going to put her dog on a leash, he said, according to his own account, “Then you’re not going to like what I’m about to do.”
That statement coming from any strange man I was alone in the woods with would shoot my blood pressure sky high. What he ended up doing was feeding her dog, essentially to annoy her, but I imagine she was too panicked at that point to think rationally, then she was thinking he might be poisoning her dog. Yes her racism probably made her panic more than she already would have. Yes she did a bad thing by bringing his race into it. The very real racial implications of this have been discussed and analyzed and picked apart far better than I could do here.
But I haven’t seen any thoughtful analysis of it through the lens of gender and violence against women.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/134 "2023-07-27T21:40:18Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> But I haven’t seen any thoughtful analysis of it through the lens of gender and rape culture.
I dunno: the video starts with her approaching him, jabbing her finger in his face, and telling him to stop recording her. He’s asking her not to approach him, and she does it anyway.
Maybe I’m missing something, but that doesn’t come across like the behavior of a woman who is afraid of being assaulted by a man. While his words out of context might come across as threatening, she doesn’t appear threatened in that way.
Are you understanding it differently?
> **[Melody Cooper on Twitter](https://web.archive.org/web/20200525182302/https://twitter.com/melodyMcooper/status/1264965252866641920)**
>
> “Oh, when Karens take a walk with their dogs off leash in the famous Bramble in NY’s Central Park, where it is clearly posted on signs that dogs MUST be leashed at all times, and someone like my brother (an avid birder) politely asks her to put her...
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/135 "2023-07-27T21:47:04Z")
I just watched the video. To me she seems like she is in total fight or flight mode, her voice is shaking all over the place. She sounds like I sound when I panic in the middle of a speech. She’s pointing her finger in an attempt to repel what she views as a threat, like an animal might make itself seem bigger to chase away a predator. Whether she’s justified in feeling threatened, that seems less obvious. He sounds pretty calm. Maybe she has anxiety or PTSD, who knows. Doesn’t justify what she did but for me, it contextualizes it.
Honestly I’m pretty depressed so few people are able to recognize what a scared woman looks like. Not an attack on you but I’ve seen it everywhere, oh she was just pretending to be afraid for police, no man, this is what fear looks like in a woman trying to hold her shit together. I’m pretty unnerved just watching it.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/136 "2023-07-27T21:53:48Z")
On second thought, if you don’t know what a scared woman acts like, that’s probably a good thing!
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/137 "2023-07-27T21:55:28Z")
When I watch that video, I’m thinking if that if I’m in this guy’s situation and this doesn’t go perfectly, I’m going to jail or worse. And I’m an Asian male.
Frankly your characterization sounds like the “gay panic defense”
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/138 "2023-07-27T22:13:41Z")
> [@El\_DeLuxo](#):
>
> Nobody should be riding their bicycle on the sidewalk. It makes it more dangerous to use the sidewalk for what it’s meant for–_walking_.
It is also more dangerous for the cyclist, because street traffic often crosses the sidewalk to get into parking lots, not to mention cyclists still have to cross intersections, and cars are simply not looking for them there.
The safest place to ride a bicycle is _in the lane of traffic_. Street-attached bike lanes are at least as dangerous as sidewalks and are too often put in the “door zone”, where cyclists get severly injured or killed by car doors suddenly opening.
Granted, Karen will complain about bicycles in the street, but Karen will complain that the sky is blue, when a shade of lavender would be so much nicer.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/139 "2023-07-27T22:24:38Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#):
>
> Frankly your characterization sounds like the “gay panic defense”
What? No, it doesn’t.
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> Whether she’s justified in feeling threatened, that seems less obvious.
She did apparently go on Bari Weiss’s podcast to recast the whole incident as one in which she was a victim–which is doubly troubling. Her claim hinges on how Chris was holding a bicycle helmet in his other hand from the treat, and she thought he was going to hit her dog with the helmet or something?
I don’t find her very credible at all, and I do think there’s a way in which some people–specifically some middle-class white women–are able to weaponize fear of men against men they perceive to be in roles of less power. While she may have been amped on adrenaline, she’d done nothing to de-escalate the situation, instead refusing to follow the posted rules or even to acknowledge them. Her fear really seems to me a fear that she’s losing control of a situation in which she’s clearly in the wrong, and she continues to escalate the situation to the point that she makes a false 911 call.
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### Author:  [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/140 "2023-07-27T22:30:49Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> I just watched the video. To me she seems like she is in total fight or flight mode, her voice is shaking all over the place. She sounds like I sound when I panic in the middle of a speech. She’s pointing her finger in an attempt to repel what she views as a threat, like an animal might make itself seem bigger to chase away a predator. Whether she’s justified in feeling threatened, that seems less obvious. He sounds pretty calm. Maybe she has anxiety or PTSD, who knows. Doesn’t justify what she did but for me, it contextualizes it.
>
> Honestly I’m pretty depressed so few people are able to recognize what a scared woman looks like. Not an attack on you but I’ve seen it everywhere, oh she was just pretending to be afraid for police, no man, this is what fear looks like in a woman trying to hold her shit together. I’m pretty unnerved just watching it.
Do you realize that this type of attitude is how people continue to justify unwarranted racist behavior? I’ve been in similar situations and I always put my hands up, step back, and give the other person as much space as possible. It didn’t stop them from getting right in my face while threatening me and insisting that I was the problem.
Personally, I try my damnedest to stay generally out of people’s space when I’m out in public. I’ve been very aware of the automatic threat people (especially white people) perceive when they interact with black folks since I was 7 or 8. My parents taught me about Emmet Till before I was 10 because they both grew up during Jim Crow and I was raised in a white suburban neighborhood.
I know I can’t raise my voice, become animated, get upset, or really express any normal human emotion when someone accuses me of nonsense and gets in my face. Did you read my post up-thread?
> [@Frosted\_Glass](#):
>
> Megan, Linda, Barb, Heather, Catherine, Lisa…the name doesn’t really matter much when we’re talking about Karen behavior.
>
> “Karen” is just an indicator of a specific type of white woman who is incredibly dangerous for black (and brown) people. The Karens that I always try to avoid threaten my job (“I’m going to talk to your manager and get you fired”) or my safety by calling the cops for a nonexistent slight or threat that they perceived.
I’m not trying to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you’re excusing horrible behavior by saying that the very real dangers that women face justify a dangerous and potentially life-threatening response to any perceived slight.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/141 "2023-07-27T22:33:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> What? No, it doesn’t.
Yes it does. Irrational panic on encountering a certain class of people that justifies putting their lives in danger.
There is nothing in that video beyond the fevered black man = rapist instinct that indicates that this woman is in any danger.
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