# The Rise of “Karens”?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [July 20, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320 "2023-07-20T18:54:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/142 "2023-07-27T22:40:06Z")
> [@Frosted\_Glass](#):
>
> I’m not trying to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you’re excusing horrible behavior by saying that the very real dangers that women face justify a dangerous and potentially life-threatening response to any perceived slight.
No, I don’t think her behavior was justified at all. In fact I generally disagree with women who believe all strange men are inherently dangerous. I don’t think fear is a justification for racism. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
---
### Author:  [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/143 "2023-07-27T23:08:35Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> No, I don’t think her behavior was justified at all. In fact I generally disagree with women who believe all strange men are inherently dangerous. I don’t think fear is a justification for racism. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Thank you for clarifying. The Internet isn’t great at nuance so it’s always nice to converse with reasonable people.
I know it’s not everyone’s reality, but we should all feel safe when we’re just trying to live our lives.
---
### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/144 "2023-07-27T23:51:20Z")
I think the reason I waded into this is because I do have a history of sexual harassment and sexual assault and I work at an agency for victims of sexual violence. At least when I was growing up, the threat of rape was a pervasive part of women’s experience, we were given any number of instructions to teach us how to avoid it with the clear message that if it did happen, it was our fault and everything we did would be scrutinized in the effort to blame us. I experienced it myself in a way that will probably live with me forever.
I’ve had a lot of time to think about the cultural messaging I got growing up and as my own feminist perspective has matured, I can’t truck with the “all men are a threat” vibe even though it’s very much alive in some strains of modern feminism.
I think I’ve been living in this world for so long it’s just my instinct to view it through a gendered lens.
I don’t know Cooper’s history, but I’m sorry to see her double down on the victim narrative rather than take accountability. It could have been an opportunity for personal growth and maybe even a teaching moment for people inclined to do similar things.
---
### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2023, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/145 "2023-07-28T13:08:19Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> At least when I was growing up, the threat of rape was a pervasive part of women’s experience, we were given any number of instructions to teach us how to avoid it with the clear message that if it did happen, it was our fault and everything we did would be scrutinized in the effort to blame us
Which is horrible and to my mind parallels [_The Talk_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_talk_(racism_in_the_United_States)) black parents have to give to their children – especially the boys. What we have here are two marginalized people each thinking the other is a threat.
---
### Author:  [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)
#### Post date: [July 31, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/146 "2023-07-31T19:46:55Z")
I thought I’d post this here in case y’all haven’t heard. Christian Cooper gets his own show!
> **[Christain Cooper — Birder Falsely Accused in Central Park — Wants Everyone to...](https://people.com/black-birder-christian-cooper-national-geographic-tv-show-extraordinary-birder-7508414)**
>
> Three years after being falsely accused by a White woman named Amy Cooper in New York City's Central Park, Christian Cooper is hosting a new National Geographic show, Extraordinary Birder
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/147 "2023-08-01T12:14:58Z")
We’ve been watching the show. It’s delightful. Unlike most nature documentaries where the host is calm and dignified, he’s giddy as a child over every sparrow and heron he sees.
---
### Author:  [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/148 "2023-08-01T13:29:48Z")
A good example of a _Kevin_ (male Karen) is Tom Hanks’s portrayal of Otto, in **A Man Called Otto** (2022).
Otto is not a _blatant_ bigot, he just feels superior to and doesn’t like anyone who isn’t exactly like him—a petty, play-strictly-by-the-rules neighbor. I won’t spoil the film, but life circumstances turned him into this type of grumpy, entitled, privileged character.
The film shows his petty, ranty encounters with his mixed neighbors: a Latino family, an oddball man who appears to be gay, a transgender boy, a Black family, a UPS driver (service provider)…and even a cat. He doesn’t rant against them for being different, he rants because they don’t play by his petty rules.
Spoiler Alert:
In the end, Otto grows and is transformed. He learns to accept the love shown by his various neighbors (and the cat) and returns their love, in spades. They saved his life, and he enriched their lives.
I think **A Man Called Otto** is a cinematic masterpiece and one of Hank’s finest performances (of which there are many). The performances by the rest of the cast are likewise stellar. However, the main theme is intense and may trigger some people, so it’s not a film for everyone.
Perhaps a film that better portrays a _Kevin_ as a _blatant_ bigot is Clint Eastwood, in **Gran Torino** (2008).
---
### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/149 "2023-08-01T13:46:12Z")
> [@Tibby](#):
>
> Perhaps a film that better portrays a _Kevin_ as a _blatant_ bigot is Clint Eastwood, in **Gran Torino** (2008).
I wouldn’t call him a Karen. The whole point of Karens is that they impose themselves, and Eastwood’s character, while a bigot, refuses to interact at all with the people he dislikes until one of them breaks into his garage. A Karen will go into your shop and demand to speak to the manager; an Eastwood wouldn’t step in there in the first place.
---
### Author:  [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/150 "2023-08-01T14:00:21Z")
I haven’t watched **Gran Torino** for a while, so you’re probably correct. Otto is a good example of a _Kevin_ who is _not_ a racist (racism isn’t a prerequisite for being a _Karen_ or _Kevin_, but many are). If Walt Kowalski (Gran Torino) ranted like Otto, _that_ would be a good example of a racist Kevin.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/151 "2023-08-01T16:07:44Z")
No has ever used Kevin or Keith to mean male Karen. Don’t try to make it happen, it won’t. Karen is totally a gendered insult no matter how much anyone insists otherwise.
“How was grocery shopping?”
“Not great. There was a total Karen in the line, giving the poor cashier a really hard time and holding all of us up.”
You can’t tell me you aren’t thinking of a white woman. Don’t bother trying I won’t believe you.
It’s a sexist insult no matter how much anyone tries to pretend otherwise. I guarantee you it has been used to shut down a woman standing up for herself, even when she was absolutely in the right.
Also everyone I know named Karen has been pleasant to interact with.
---
### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/152 "2023-08-01T16:12:39Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> everyone I know named Karen has been pleasant to interact with.
Why would anyone think otherwise? You’ve known several Karens who were not “Karens”. The distribution of “Karens” among people named Karen should be the same as the distribution of “Karens” among people named Vickie.
---
### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/153 "2023-08-01T16:16:58Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> Don’t bother trying I won’t believe you.
Thanks for sharing, then.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/154 "2023-08-01T16:21:37Z")
My pleasure! I am right though, and you know it. Everyone knows it.
ETA: Have you ever, in real life, heard someone refer to a male entitled asshole as a Kieth? Or a Kevin? No one even in this thread can agree on which name to use.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/155 "2023-08-01T16:25:19Z")
I know I’d be annoyed if people used my real first name as an insult.
---
### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/156 "2023-08-02T00:30:57Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> My pleasure! I am right though, and you know it. Everyone knows it.
Wow do I feel like an idiot then.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/157 "2023-08-02T00:33:12Z")
If you don’t think an insult which is literally a woman’s name isn’t a gendered insult I don’t know how to convince you.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/158 "2023-08-02T00:36:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> Have you ever, in real life, heard someone refer to a male entitled asshole as a Kieth? Or a Kevin? No one even in this thread can agree on which name to use.
Yes, repeatedly.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/159 "2023-08-02T00:39:35Z")
Which one?
---
### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/160 "2023-08-02T01:05:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#):
>
> I know I’d be annoyed if people used my real first name as an insult
My IRL first name is Mark. You know, like the person who is a target for people pulling a con? I deal with it.
---
### Author:  [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320/161 "2023-08-02T01:18:44Z")
I imagine real life ladies named couldn’t give 2 shits.
I’m a Becky. It’s used as horrible put down.
I’m not that. And I don’t give 2 shits.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320.md?page=7)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rise-of-karens/987320.md?page=9)