# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/362 "2021-11-11T02:09:47Z")
I do not believe such a description is accurately applied to these three individuals; do you have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/363 "2021-11-11T02:10:25Z")
I’m not sure I see the relevance of your beliefs. If someone is walking down the street, they are in fact a person of walking, aka a walker. No cite or conviction necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/364 "2021-11-11T02:10:49Z")
And none of us can see the relevance of a cite you have not provided. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/365 "2021-11-11T02:14:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Being arrested, charged, and convicted of a crime is not a necessary condition to be factually described. Then I can factually describe Rittenhouse as a murderer? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/366 "2021-11-11T02:16:44Z")
Not quite. Self defense is legal. Murder is not. He killed someone, that’s not in question, but he didn’t murder anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/367 "2021-11-11T02:18:21Z")
Okay, no cite. Thank you for admitting that the three in question were _not_ rioters and that your description of them as such was unfounded and had no basis in reality. Your silence serves as your agreement. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/368 "2021-11-11T02:23:10Z")
Not just rioters but they were communists, pedophiles and other not upstanding citizens who traveled to participate in rioting, arson, and general mayhem. Unfortunately, they also felt the need to assault someone and it ended poorly for them. Reality doesn’t need any of our consents to be. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/369 "2021-11-11T02:24:02Z")
Are you again making the claim that they were rioters? Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/370 "2021-11-11T02:49:15Z")
“I’m thinking that if you hear gunshots while running away and you turn around and a guy is pointing a Glock 17 at you from three feet away, the ‘benefit of the doubt’ ship has pretty much sailed.” You might want to familiarize yourself with the facts of the case since nothing like that occurred. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/371 "2021-11-11T02:51:52Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Because the affirmative defense they are trying to refute is that he acted in self defense. Did the prosecution up to this point put forth any evidence that he killed them to protect property? Was anyone involved destroying property when they were shot? I don’t know, did they? The defense were the ones who wanted to call them rioters, arsonists, and looters. That would seem to put property damage by them at issue. How is calling them arsonists and looters not saying they were destroying property and stealing? How would it not be relevant to his state of mind to show that he thinks shooting people to protect property is appropriate? The question was asked in the defense case, on cross-examination, so the prosecutor isn’t limited to things they put on evidence of. Was there no evidence that Rittenhouse thought they were arsonists or looters? Didn’t Rittenhouse first get into it with Rosenbaum because he put out a fire that Rosenbaum set or was associated with? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/372 "2021-11-11T03:02:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > More like, we don’t need to give people a free shot at killing us. Someone triss to kill you, you can try to kill them right back. The only question you’ll face is whether you had no alternative, not whether you thought the other guy was good or bad, or what color his skin was, or anything else. If you reasonably believe your life is in danger, you can defend yourself up to and including lethal force. No normative judgements about the other people are needed. This is wrong. There’s more to it than that, and there may not ordinarily be judgments about what kind of person the other guy is (but there can be) but there will definitely be judgments about what each person was doing prior to trying to kill the other, and why they are trying to kill one another. And if person A knows that person B has a past history of, say, putting people in the hospital, it can be very relevant to A’s claim that he feared for his life when B started threatening him. It’s one of the few times character evidence is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/373 "2021-11-11T03:11:48Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Grosskreutz just has a misdemeanor conviction for possessing a gun while intoxicated. Oh. no! Not THAT! Why, that’d be most of the gun owners I know! Heck, that’d be most gun owners in the U.S.! I’m sure going to eye my gun-owning friends a LOT more suspiciously when they pop the top of a cold brewski. And here I trusted them because I know they’re good, reasonably safety-conscious people. Well, I sure know better now. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/374 "2021-11-11T04:04:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Not just rioters but they were communists {…} Well, in that case he should have shot them on site! AmIRight? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/375 "2021-11-11T04:15:29Z")
Absolutely not. People are free to believe and say what they wish. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/376 "2021-11-11T04:18:40Z")
Then why the fuck did you even bring it up? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/377 "2021-11-11T04:24:37Z")
One thing I’ve noticed with both Kyle and the Arbery case is that those who have the firearm believe that not only will they be disarmed but they will also be murdered with their own firearm. IMHO this is pure gun nut fantasy persecution complex. Yes, if there is an active shooter or perceived active shooter situation, and I get caught up in it, I will try to stop the shooter. The last thing in my mind is to grab the gun and shoot to kill the perp. Now, I sure as hell may try to grab the gun and put a rifle butt to the head. Much more likely, I will reached back into my distant 5 years of martial arts, and try to incapacitate the weapon holder badly. Just because one has a firearm and a fantasy that anyone taking it from you is not going to stop with disarming but actually murder you with your own weapon, doesn’t make it valid self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/378 "2021-11-11T04:26:07Z")
Rittenhouse is literally on video saying he wished he had a firearm so he could shoot people that he THOUGHT were shoplifting. Sounds like an anarchist to me, dunno why octy is so set on defending him. Well, actually… ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/379 "2021-11-11T05:15:20Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > Grosskreutz just has a misdemeanor conviction for possessing a gun while intoxicated. > > Oh. no! Not THAT! Why, that’d be most of the gun owners I know! Heck, that’d be most gun owners in the U.S.! I’m sure going to eye my gun-owning friends a LOT more suspiciously when they pop the top of a cold brewski. And here I trusted them because I know they’re good, reasonably safety-conscious people. Well, I sure know better now. Thank you! I didn’t say he was guilty of a heinous crime. It was erroneously reported at the time that he was a felon and prohibited from legally possessing a weapon. That was incorrect. Since it was a misdemeanor, by state law it had no effect on his legal right to own or possess a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/380 "2021-11-11T05:40:49Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I didn’t say he was guilty of a heinous crime. Nobody said you did. You were responding to **BippityBoppityBoo’s** request for a cite for SpacemanSpiff’s claim about those Rittenhouse shot by explaining how they were: > [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > a collection of violent thugs, child abusers, and mentally ill people. Yet possession of a firearm while drunk doesn’t make Grosskreutz a violent thug, a child abuser, or mentally ill. So why include that? And unlike RIttenhouse, who pretended to be an EMT, Grosskreutz actually _was_ a paramedic. He treated dozen protestors that night and heroically tried to stop an active shooter. That seems much more relevant than a misdemeanor charge for a very common practice. Rittenhouse may walk, but I hope he gets the shit sued out of him by Grosskreutz and others. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2021, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/381 "2021-11-11T05:56:00Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > request for a cite for SpacemanSpiff’s claim about those Rittenhouse shot by explaining how they were: > > > [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > > > a collection of violent thugs, child abusers, and mentally ill people. Of which only one I have I been able to confirm (the child abuser claim). And what does ‘mentally ill people’ have to do with anything? Being mentally ill is not a character flaw, much less a morally reprehensible crime like any kind of domestic or child abuse. I think an apology is owed to mentally ill people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=20)