# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/883 "2021-11-16T22:45:27Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Right. Poor old Kyle went there to buy gum. Those mean old protesters bothered him and he just felt it necessary to gun them down. Actually, he went there to do exactly what he was observed doing: Cleaning up graffitti and garbage, offering medical assistance, etc. And no doubt also to ‘protect people’, which is why he stupidly brought that gun. This is what happens when riots are allowed to run without the police asserting control. You get a rise in armed citizens doing the job the cops should be doing. When crime was rampant and police ineffective in New York pre-Guliani, it caused the rise of groups like the Guardian Angels and fantasy vigilante movies like ‘Death Wish’. If you don’t want more citizens with guns showing up at riots, stop defunding the damned police, and stop preventing them from using their tools to contain riots. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/884 "2021-11-16T22:46:05Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > Now closing in on 900 posts and I still don’t understand the weight people are putting on coming from a different state. I routinely drive to Pennsylvania just to get a meal. Crossing the border really isn’t a big deal. Rosenbaum travelled the same exact distance but he drove south instead of west so apparently that doesn’t matter. I guess some people were hoping for a federal gun charge or something but that was ruled out pretty quickly. > > I think it _is_ about as relevant as how far Rosenbaum travelled. Neither of them were from Kenosha, they both made the trip there just to get involved in a situation that they otherwise had no business being involved in. Rosenbaum to cause chaos and Rittenhouse to play the hero. It’s not quite the same thing as someone in Newport, KY driving into downtown Cincy to grab a bite to eat. > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I honestly get the impression it’s just people who have never lived near a state line, and don’t understand that for people who do…crossing those lines is not a big deal. No different from crossing a county or municipal line, people talk about it like he crossed into Canada. > > It’s relevant, to me, in terms of the firearm purchase. He didn’t have a firearm ID to be able to buy or possess a firearm in IL, so he gave a friend money to buy it in a different state where the laws were less strict. It may not be the crime of the century, or even a crime at all, but it shows a certain dedication to acquiring a gun just for the purpose of playing hero. Wasn’t like he had it lying around, he had to figure out a workaround for the laws in Illinois. In general I don’t disagree with what you said. It’s not like I’m happy he went there armed. He’s an idiot. He shouldn’t have gone. And Rosenbaum was apparently mentally ill. He shouldn’t have gone. The world would be a better place if those two never met. It is a point that he travelled there. But the fact that his trip crossed a border doesn’t have the importance some think it does. It certainly doesn’t need to be _emphasized._ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/885 "2021-11-16T22:46:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Actually, he went there to do exactly what he was observed doing: Cleaning up graffitti and garbage, offering medical assistance, etc. And no doubt also to ‘protect people’, which is why he stupidly brought that gun. > > This is what happens when riots are allowed to run without the police asserting control. You get a rise in armed citizens doing the job the cops should be doing. When crime was rampant and police ineffective in New York pre-Guliani, it caused the rise of groups like the Guardian Angels and fantasy vigilante movies like ‘Death Wish’. > > If you don’t want more citizens with guns showing up at riots, stop defunding the damned police, and stop preventing them from using their tools to contain riots. So what you’re saying is that Rittenhouse was a member of a vigilante group, and that you’re fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/886 "2021-11-16T22:47:51Z")
I mean I’m as tough on Sam as anyone (in fact I might point out the police have not been “defunded” almost anywhere, or anything close to it, particularly not in Kenosha), but he didn’t remotely say Rittenhouse was part of a vigilante group. This is a very bad faith post. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/887 "2021-11-16T22:49:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Actually, he went there to do exactly what he was observed doing: Cleaning up graffitti and garbage, offering medical assistance, etc. And no doubt also to ‘protect people’, which is why he stupidly brought that gun.[/quote] > > How was he going to clean graffiti – shoot it off the walls? Maybe it’s my Woke Librul Peacenik nature, but I usually clean with a mop and a bucket. (I’m not even going to touch that “medical assistance” howler…) > > > [@](#): > > > > This is what happens when riots are allowed to run without the police asserting control. You get a rise in armed citizens doing the job the cops should be doing. When crime was rampant and police ineffective in New York pre-Guliani, it caused the rise of groups like the Guardian Angels and fantasy vigilante movies like ‘Death Wish’. > > The cops are too busy coordinating with the Proud Boys to incite the vandalism and fires during the protests. > > [quote]If you don’t want more citizens with guns showing up at riots, stop defunding the damned police, and stop preventing them from using their tools to contain riots. Haven’t seen that much straw since _Hee Haw._ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/888 "2021-11-16T22:49:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So what you’re saying is that Rittenhouse was a member of a vigilante group, and that you’re fine with that. Ah, the ‘So what you are saying…’ dodge where you get to twist someone’s words beyond recognition as a ‘refutation’. It’s not what I said at all. I never mentioned membership in any group, or vigilantism at all. Other than that, though… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/889 "2021-11-16T22:50:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > but he didn’t remotely say Rittenhouse was part of a vigilante group. This is a very bad faith post. He said this: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If you don’t want more citizens with guns showing up at riots, stop defunding the damned police, and stop preventing them from using their tools to contain riots. Citizens with guns who show up at riots to contain them because the police have had their “tools” taken away is exactly how I would define a vigilante, and it confuses me that you’d call someone pointing that out a “bad faith post”. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/890 "2021-11-16T22:52:56Z")
Except gyrate said “vigilante group”, when no one has suggested Rittenhouse was part of any group. And no, simply “showing up” doesn’t constitute vigilantism, nor does it fairly represent what Sam said. Rittenhouse never, to anyone’s knowledge attempted to perform “riot control” activity, which would be vigilantism. HIs activities that night were not police activities, and the definition of a vigilante is he steps in for the official law enforcement to take matters into his own hands. If he was trying to arrest rioters or etc you’d have some argument that he was behaving as a vigilante. Either way, nothing Sam said could fairly indicate that he was saying “Rittenhouse was in a vigilante group.” ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/891 "2021-11-16T22:56:51Z")
Nobody died because Rittenhouse “simply showed up.” As far as vigilantism goes, that only applies to people who are interested in justice. I don’t think that applied to Rittenhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/892 "2021-11-16T23:02:27Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I mean I’m as tough on Sam as anyone (in fact I might point out the police have not been “defunded” almost anywhere, or anything close to it, particularly not in Kenosha), but he didn’t remotely say Rittenhouse was part of a vigilante group. This is a very bad faith post. Not at all. **Sam** said > [@](#): > > And no doubt also to ‘protect people’, which is why he stupidly brought that gun. So Rittenhouse was an armed member of a self-appointed group there to “protect” people. He then justified this behavior by claiming the police were unable to maintain the peace. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Ah, the ‘So what you are saying…’ dodge where you get to twist someone’s words beyond recognition as a ‘refutation’. Oh, it’s entirely recognizable. You indicated that this was an example of armed vigilantes - individual ones, at the very least - taking action against other private citizens on their own initiative. And you did not blame the vigilantes, but rather the police (or those who “defunded the police”). If you don’t like the implication of your own words, that’s not my fault. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Except gyrate said “vigilante group”, when no one has suggested Rittenhouse was part of any group. Wasn’t he part of a group, though? He wasn’t there on his own. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Rittenhouse never, to anyone’s knowledge attempted to perform “riot control” activity, which would be vigilantism. HIs activities that night were not police activities, and the definition of a vigilante is he steps in for the official law enforcement to take matters into his own hands. If he was trying to arrest rioters or etc you’d have some argument that he was behaving as a vigilante. Why did he travel there - at that hour - then? Was it just to stand casually on the sidewalk, nonchalantly holding a gun he just happened to have? I mean, **Sam** certainly seems to think that this was a clear example of “armed citizens doing the job police should be doing”. Sounds like I wasn’t misrepresenting him at all. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/893 "2021-11-16T23:09:14Z")
Engaging in rioting and looting does indeed make one a rioter and looter or euphemistically a mostly peaceful protester. One is a fact the other is spin. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/894 "2021-11-16T23:10:40Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But the fact that his trip crossed a border doesn’t have the importance some think it does. It certainly doesn’t need to be _emphasized._ Sure. Likewise, I could say that the fact that his trip crossed a border isn’t as irrelevant as some think it is, because it allowed him to skirt firearms laws. He probably wouldn’t have done the same thing in, say, Waukegan. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/895 "2021-11-16T23:14:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Rittenhouse was part of the Kenosha community You’ve state your case well but I’m not particularly buying it. That said, this isn’t a hill I’m going to die on. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/896 "2021-11-16T23:23:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Engaging in rioting and looting does indeed make one a rioter and looter or euphemistically a mostly peaceful protester. One is a fact the other is spin. And you can point me at some evidence that Rosenbaum, Huber and Grosskreutz specifically had been looting and rioting? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/897 "2021-11-16T23:31:32Z")
In my mind KR going to Kenosha is less important than him intentionally leaving the grounds of the property he was supposed to protect, even after being warned to stay put and not interfere with the protestors. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/898 "2021-11-16T23:31:35Z")
I apologize if I missed it in this giant thread, but: In ADA Thomas Binger’s closing argument, he apparently decided it was would really exciting to play with guns in the courtroom. I mean, yes, it may or may not be good as an argument (no idea), but I think he broke 3-4 rules of firearms safety _in the courtroom_ just based on what I can see in one image alone. This guy was one mistake away from sending a juror to the morgue, as the tragic mess on the filmset of Rust shows. I express no opinion on the matter or the trial otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/899 "2021-11-16T23:34:30Z")
I’m pretty sure every time the lawyers have handled the guns they’ve had someone do a safety check. Even between handling by the prosecution and defense a couple hours apart in their closing statements. The weapons, especially the one used in the killings, have been brought out and handled multiple times by both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/900 "2021-11-16T23:37:08Z")
I don’t really think a prosecutor should point even a checked-by-police gun at anyone in court. And while that seems to be an incredibly popular narrative on “certain websites” right now, having watched the actual video the angle he is facing versus the camera makes it impossible for me to tell if he has actually pointed the gun at anyone. It makes it seem like if he did point it at anyone, it was an audience member in the court room gallery, not the jury. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/901 "2021-11-16T23:39:17Z")
I don’t buy the right wing faux outrage over Biden “calling Rittenhouse a white supremacist”. He said no such thing. This was a 2020 campaign tweet criticizing Donnie T. for not denouncing white supremacists along with a photo of the killer Rittenhouse and his assault weapon. It was used as a stock photo- a teenage punk sporting a deadly weapon is exactly what a white supremacist looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/902 "2021-11-16T23:44:24Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I’m pretty sure every time the lawyers have handled the guns they’ve had someone do a safety check. The bailiff or whoever checked the chamber, then handed it to the lawyer who proceeded to aim it at the jury with his finger on the trigger, without first checking the gun himself. That’s exactly how Alec Baldwin managed to accidentally shoot and kill his cinematographer. Always assume a gun is loaded. When you handle a gun, don’t do anything until you have checked that it is clear, then assume it’s loaded anyway. Never point a gun at anything you don’t intend to destroy. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready and willing to shoot something. The prosecutor violated all of those. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=46)