# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/121 "2021-11-05T14:43:16Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Only part I disagree with is why Rosenbaum had to pursue him. I think he was looking for trouble as much as Rittenhouse was. If he’d just ignored Rittenhouse and let him walk past, he’d still be alive. Hindsight 20/20. Fear, anger, adrenaline. How anyone reacts in that moment can’t be predicted and is difficult to judge afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/122 "2021-11-05T14:43:54Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > Thanks for that update, so I was not aware until reading this that McGinniss was associated with the Daily Caller. That makes me trust his word less, but I’m not sure it makes me believe he’d lie on the stand under oath, which is a different beast from the sort of lying everyone at the Daily Caller does on a regular basis for their jobs. > > The important point here is that McGinniss is a prosecution witness, not a defense witness. > > It’s not like the prosecution has presented guys saying that Rosenbaum did _not_ threaten to kill Rittenhouse or lunge for his weapon, and you’re trying to assess McGinniss’ credibility against other evidence. > > At least to this point, anyway, that’s all there is. You can’t just conjure up evidence by saying that a witness is not credible therefore the opposite of whatever he says must be true. You need to have something of your own which supports an alternative version. Well certainly thank you for saying “I can’t” do something I was not remotely doing to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/123 "2021-11-05T14:44:57Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > For the record I think what this kid did was immoral, unethical, stupid, and perhaps evil. But under the law he might get off. > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > It all just feels so ridiculous, being able to introduce the only weapon into a confrontation and then use a fear of losing control of that weapon for taking preemptive lethal force. > > Agree with both. This is why laws need to be changed – to discourage this scenario. 100%. > [@pkbites](#): > > Hindsight 20/20. Fear, anger, adrenaline. How anyone reacts in that moment can’t be predicted and is difficult to judge afterward. Yep, that’s why we should discourage those civilians who would bring firearms into these kinds of situations using the full force of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/124 "2021-11-05T14:45:44Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sure. But this just leads to awful scenarios like this, where people get killed based on a stack of conjecture. You assume that Rosenbaum was rushing Rittenhouse to hurt or kill him. You assume that he was trying to take the gun. You assume that he would have used the gun once he’d taken it. And based on all of those assumptions, you use deadly force. But where do the assumptions stop? What’s reasonable? The moment Rosenbaum started walking towards him, could Rittenhouse have assumed that it was a risk to his personal safety to let him even get within arms reach? And gunned him down from across the parking lot? I’m afraid there’s no easy answers to your questions. Each case needs to be examined on its own before you can answer any of those questions. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/125 "2021-11-05T14:48:23Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I also find it interesting they can’t consider lesser offenses. I don’t believe so. But I am unaware of what he’s all charged with. Sometimes the D.A. Charges several things at the same time giving the jury the ability to convict of the lesser charge. But they can’t convict of something that wasn’t in the original complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/126 "2021-11-05T14:51:06Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > That is indeed true. > > However in the exchange, Rittenhouse posed a danger from a distance. Rosenbaum could only remove the threat by disarming Rittenhouse. Not accurate, actually. The aerial video Bo posted shows that Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum’s interaction began with Rosenbaum in a parking lot and Rittenhouse walking down a sidewalk that runs along the parking lot…Rittenhouse stops and some sort of interaction (verbal) occurs, and then Rittenhouse continues along the sidewalk in the same direction he had been going. Rosenbaum pursues, and the fatal conflicts occurs after Rosenbaum has pursued Rittenhouse for a short distance. The parking lot Rosenbaum was in was next to a building and had several cars in it. Rosenbaum if he felt Rittenhouse was a danger could have simply not pursued him, which given Rittenhouse’s direction of walking, would have quickly denied Rittenhouse a clear shot at Rosenbaum because of cars in the way. If Rosenbaum still felt unsafe he could have even backed up not all that far and gone around the other side of the building whose parking lot he was in, and had multiple layers of cover and concealment separating him and Rittenhouse. Note that Rittenhouse had his gun slung over his shoulder, not drawn or being aimed. The idea that Rosenbaum’s only means to remove danger was to attempt to rush and disarm Rittenhouse is not supported by the video evidence of the incident. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/127 "2021-11-05T15:00:41Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well certainly thank you for saying “I can’t” do something I was not remotely doing to begin with. OK, so I guess your comment about McGinniss’ credibility was about the theoretical possibility that some future evidence might emerge which contradicted him. I did not appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/128 "2021-11-05T15:08:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The idea that Rosenbaum’s only means to remove danger was to attempt to rush and disarm Rittenhouse is not supported by the video evidence of the incident. Clearly you are correct. There was plethora of options available to both parties. However, the only deadly element was the presence of a firearm. Removing it was an act of self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/129 "2021-11-05T15:08:24Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > Rittenhouse opens fire as soon as Rosenbaum catches up to him. > > Rittenhouse posed a lethal threat to the unarmed Rosenbaum. It was a reasonable act of self defense for Rosenbaum to pursue and attempt to disarm Rittenhouse. We have ample evidence that Rosenbaum had reason to fear for his life. It’s an open carry state. The fact that someone is carrying a weapon does not give anyone the right to disarm them. As Martin Hyde pointed out the video shows Rittenhouse walking away. Rosenbaum goes after him. Seconds before he reaches Rittenhouse a third party fires a “warning shot” in close proximity. In what way does that add up to Rosenbaum having the right to disarm Rittenhouse? If someone is trying to take your gun will you not have a reasonable belief it will be used against you? The prosecution seems to be doing a good job for the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/130 "2021-11-05T15:11:07Z")
So, what is required for a weapon to illicit fear for ones life? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/131 "2021-11-05T15:35:37Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > So, what is required for a weapon to illicit fear for ones life?. Judging by the outcome of prior cases, the guy holding it needs to have dark skin. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/132 "2021-11-05T16:30:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > So, what is required for a weapon to illicit fear for ones life? Depends on if you want a factual discussion based on the law and facts of the case or an emotional one. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/133 "2021-11-05T16:48:41Z")
How so? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/134 "2021-11-05T17:14:36Z")
Ya know, I can’t wait to see this: go ahead and answer **Crane**. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/135 "2021-11-05T17:48:00Z")
I’m sorry do you not understand what the law and facts mean? Basing your opinion of if he should be convicted on I don’t like open carry and he was an asshole is not basing your opinion on the case or the law where it happened. You can not claim self defense in an open carry state just because someone is open carrying. You might not like it. I might not like it. What we like has no bearing on it. Go to an open carry state and try it if you don’t believe me. So far in this case you have the victim and the defendant apparently have some words. We don’t know what was said. There is nothing to indicate Rittenhouse pointed the gun at him. In fact we see on video presented by the prosecution that Rittenhouse was walking away. You need a lot more than someone walking away from you and not making any threatening gestures to claim self defense. In an open carry state you don’t have the right to take someone’s gun just because you don’t like that he’s carrying it. Feel free to misplace your anger towards the law at me. I can take it. I would like to see the little shit in jail too. I just can see how this plays out in court. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/136 "2021-11-05T21:30:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Hindsight 20/20. Fear, anger, adrenaline. How anyone reacts in that moment can’t be predicted and is difficult to judge afterward. > > Yep, that’s why we should discourage those civilians who would bring firearms into these kinds of situations using the full force of the law. I was speaking to the actions of Rosenbaum. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/137 "2021-11-05T21:55:10Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > You can not claim self defense in an open carry state just because someone is open carrying. You need only fear your life is in danger. You do not have to prove intent. " based on the law and facts " Ultimately the ‘law’ is the instructions given to the jury. The ‘facts’ are selected by 12 jurors, from information given them by paid professionals each of whom has a vested interest in the outcome. It is not the scientific method. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/138 "2021-11-05T22:01:38Z")
It’s funny how you focus on someone present at a riot that caused approximately 40 million dollars in damage and destroyed scores of businesses who was targeted by the mob and defended himself instead of the folks who traveled, many of them armed, with the intent of arson, assault, and looting all nominally for ‘social justice.’ ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/139 "2021-11-05T22:03:05Z")
Put each of them on trial and we can discuss it. I mean, why are we discussing Kyle Rittenhouse when there’s poverty and slavery still happening, shouldn’t we be talking about that? It’s a thread about Kyle Rittenhouse, why would we be talking about other random people that were out that night? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/140 "2021-11-05T22:03:25Z")
People have the right to self defense and people have the right to use public spaces. People don’t have the right to engage in arson and looting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=8)